Friday, October 24, 2008

If you pal around with Baptists you become Baptists

Anonymous said...
Blogging also inadvertently creates hysteria and this is what I see happening in regards to C&C.

Many readers take the opinion of a few bloggers as fact, when in reality it is just that - an opinion.

It is my opinion that the Church and Changers are using methods that deny the Word and Sacraments because they are stealing ideas from the Baptists (ie Ed Stetzer). I believe that Martin Luther held the same opinion on the importance of the Word and Sacraments.

I have regular dealings with many of those involved in C&C. My pastor has also attended their conference. None of them have separated themselves from our WELS in their actions or their beliefs. I have no doubt of their Lutheranism. I have no doubt of their abidance to God's truth.C&C doesn't seek to abolish our Lutheranism. It encourages additions to it, in the manner in which we present God's true and saving grace. .......I suspect you will not find that.I do support C&C, both in my prayers and my givings.

Mr. Anonymous, ~ I will continue to disparage the Church and Change movement. I have visited a conference and walked out. I have studied it and thrown up. I have visited the C&C churches and I have found them anything but Lutheran. The hysteria should be greater than what it is. The C&Cers have denied the importance of the sacraments. Therefore, by doing this they are denying the word. This is not Lutheran sir. Our worship life is tied to our doctrine and the Word. The changers read this blog and try to quiet the discussion. They didn't want the invitation to Ed to become public knowledge. They don't like to be exposed.

Yet what pastor will stand up to this??? Are there any??? One WELS pastor recently told me that this won't happen because of the confessional witch hunt atmosphere. I will acknowledge that Pres. Schroeder has been working to stop this hunt. But they (C&Cers) are working against him. I hope and pray that some WELS pastor will have the courage to stand up and publically denounce this movement.

Hebrews 13:7-9 -- The author of Hebrews warns us about the Church and Changers. I implore you to study these verses. The liturgy does not reflect 16th century Germany it is our faith from earliest of times. Remember the Augsburg confessions which talks about novelties that did not exist in the ancient church. This is what the changers are doing to the catholic church. Be warned, be aware, and be afraid of what is happening. Do not give your offerings to this movement. This is not your grandfathers church any longer. This is becoming a radical movement. Yes radical. That is how the C&Cers describe themselves on their own website as they shun the historical context of Lutheranism.

October 24, 2008 11:03 AM
Anonymous said...
Well, I have mis-givings about C and C. They tried to stay under the radar for a long time. As soon as this blog exposed the Church and Change invite to that Dunker Stetzer, the C and C began filling their catapaults with mud and firing away. The Confessions are not a tradition. Lutheran doctrine is not a tradition. We follow Lutheran doctrine because it is faithful to the plain meaning of the canonical Scriptures. The non-Lutherans make fun of Biblical, Lutheran doctrine. That is their tradition. Lie down with Baptists, get up with headaches.


Anonymous said...

I was wondering how to respond to the blogger who advised we should shut up about C&C and take his word for it that everything is OK and we're wrong for even questioning it. We're causing people to fall away by discussing it. We're creating a bigger problem by asking questions.

Righteous indignation, John? Not bad. Not bad at all.

The bloggers comments are not unlike liberalism in any other aspect of society, a kind of gnosticism that aggressively condescends any challenger. Discussion, if it is dissension, must be stifled. He/she showed their cards though, which is honest enough. They are of them. And we should trust this anonymous poster because they have researched it for us, confirmed the commitment of its promoters to Lutheran confessions and we are sinful to oppose it or them. Liberalism feigns tolerance, but is anything but in reality.

"Do not worry. Everything is OK here. You can have yours and we'll have ours. We are not affecting anything. It is only to save those who don't know about Lutheranism or are offended by it. You have no love for the lost..." It reminds me of the scene in The Naked Gun when the fireworks are exploding and all kinds of chaos ensues behind the detective as he shouts, "Move along. There's nothing to see here. Move along."

It reeks of deception and hypocrisy. Oh, yes, all are welcome ... as long as you believe as they do. How is that any different than what we confessional crusaders are accused of? C&C is trying to accept everyone, except, of course, you relics. Liberalism hides its intolerance behind crafty words.

I don't know what affect C&C is having on WELS, but it is bound to have some. That is their goal. I've heard a WELS mission counselor speak the exact same things as C&C. And comments on this blog in support of it are not unlike what is being heard in this current political environment. Maybe it is only a small portion, but the theology of glory spreads like a cancer - slowly and quietly. And before long, it is too late. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord have mercy.


Anonymous said...

Thank God people are finally rising up and speaking out against C&C. We need more and more people- and especially pastors- to speak up and denounce these errant ways. Insist that none of your church offerings be used to fund this group who is using our own money to fund their apostasy. Have courage and let your pastor and church leaders know how you feel about this. Go over their heads and let your synod leaders know how wrong this is and that you won't have it. They need to hear it from we, the people. Don't let the C&C crowd think they can slowly seep into your church. You'll wake up one Sunday morning and not recognize the church you've belonged to for years. Be strong and courageous. Don't sit idly by.

Anonymous said...

I talked with my pastor who is and has been outraged with what has been going on. He is not strong enough (or perhaps outraged enough) to publicly take a public stand ALONE. He would like to see a large group of pastors take a stand TOGETHER against all this stuff. The beginnings of taking a stand together was happening in the Issues in WELS group...but they have disbanded or suspended for some reason. It makes it appear that all is well in WELS.
Our District President does not seem opposed to the Church and Change stuff. I will try to talk with him once more.
Can we all get our pastors together so they can take a public stand?
QUESTION: If a pastor leaves WELS before retirement age, does he lose his entire pension? Is it $$$ that is preventing some from leaving or taking a chance that taking a firm stand against things will get them ousted?