Tuesday, October 30, 2007

The Conference Folow-up page

Mr. Grammarian please help! We most certainly appreciate how you have helped us understand the basics of the English language here on Bailing Water.

I would like to invite you to drop in on the church and change website.

http://www.the conference folow up page

I think that they could use your services too! Scroll down just a bit to folow up. Is this a Freudian slip?

The Lord's Supper

A new thread about the Lord's Supper has started so I have opened up a new post. (post your comments on this topic here)

Devil's Advocate said...

Oh, so technically then we should have Communion every Saturday...the Lord did not change the Sabbath. I think we should banish worship on Sundays as it is just not Biblical. We should also not call Sunday the "Lord's Day" because it technically isn't.

October 29, 2007 8:43 PM
UP said...

"Oh, so technically then we should have Communion every Saturday...the Lord did not change the Sabbath. I think we should banish worship on Sundays as it is just not Biblical. We should also not call Sunday the "Lord's Day" because it technically isn't."

That is an insult to the devil's intelligence. If that's the best you can do, I feel sorry for you.

Take a look at Colossians 2:16-17. Note that Paul writes, "the reality, however, is found in Christ." Christ is the fulfillment of the OT Sabbath laws. I learned that in Sunday school. Surprised you didn't.

I seem to recall Jesus calling himself the Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12, Luke 6)

Since Christ rose on a Sunday, I think we can call it the Lord's Day. Seems most of the rest of the Christian church through the last 2,000 years agrees with me.

No, you don't HAVE TO have communion every Sunday. You don't have to breathe every Sunday either. Why would you not want to receive the gift of our Savior's Body and Blood given for the forgiveness of your sins, life, and salvation? Even if you feel no need for the Sacrament every Sunday, the comment above yours says "offer the Sacrament every Lord's Day", not force devil's advocate to receive the Sacrament every Lord's Day. So, even if you do not receive the Sacrament every Lord's Day, why would you deny it to the rest of the congregation?


October 30, 2007 8:12 AM
Devil's Advocate said...

"That is an insult to the devil's intelligence. If that's the best you can do, I feel sorry for you."

No need to feel sorry for me or the devil's intelligience(and let's be honest folks, he wasn't the brightest bulb that ever burnt when he attempted to "tempt" Jesus), I was being sarcastic, but thanks for the sympathy, though it's not needed.

The desire for the Sacrament every Sunday as I am reading it here is becoming a bit legalistic--almost like it is someway makes you more holy if you take it every time its offered. Remember, that even if it is offered every Sunday to be careful to examine yourself--after all you can take it to your damnation if you take it in an unworthy manner...so be careful.

Devil's Advocate said...

"Take a look at Colossians 2:16-17. Note that Paul writes, "the reality, however, is found in Christ." Christ is the fulfillment of the OT Sabbath laws. I learned that in Sunday school. Surprised you didn't.

I seem to recall Jesus calling himself the Lord of the Sabbath. (Matthew 12, Luke 6)

Since Christ rose on a Sunday, I think we can call it the Lord's Day. Seems most of the rest of the Christian church through the last 2,000 years agrees with me."

Hmmm...so because *you think* it is appropriate because Jesus rose on Sunday, it is therefore the new "Sabbath" day. Interesting that you would insult my intelligence because I am suppose to based my beliefs off of what you "think."

I actually worship on Sunday. I have not issue with it, but technically it isn't the "Sabbath" day as defined by God. Sunday is the day we choose to worship. Since I believe the 3rd Commandment is about worshiping God and setting time apart to focus on my God, I have no issue with saying that Saturday is the Sabbath technically, but we may worship on any day of the week. Any day that we choose to worship is the "Lord's Day"...no matter if it is Monday, Wednesday, etc.

If that is true....then shouldn't we have communion everyday? Why is it that we should only have it once a week? Is that truly enough? Why is it that once a week is more "godly" than twice a month...if we use that train of thought that wouldn't it be better to have it offered daily?

As for church history. There is a significant evidence that there was a time where communion was only celebrated once a year....do we ignore that part of church history simply because we don't like it?

October 30, 2007 8:17 AM

mav said...

"examine yourself"

Just curious, what do you think this means?

Devil's Advocate said...

"examine yourself"

Just curious, what do you think this means?"

What does it mean to you?

To me it means focusing on what communion is, repenting of all your sins...etc. Focusing on the real reason for the Sacrament and not just to fufill a legalistic rule in my head that I have to take it when it is offered or I am sinning...the Sacrament is important to me and I refuse to judge another's "faith" based on how often they take it. We've got plenty of people in the pews at our church keeping tabs of who does or does not take communion...it's nice of them to help God out don't you think (and yes that was sarcasm)?

Anonymous said...


I think this is a meet, right and salutary topic. I think your fellow, kind bloggers would benefit greatly from reading this article on the Supper of our Lord. It certainly enriched me.


There are wonderful Scriptural truths that are revealed here that are not often heard in our midst.


Sunday, October 28, 2007

Come To the WELS

I’m sure most of you received Rev. JD Liggett's letter from the office of the WELS Ministry of Christian Giving. Rev. JD Liggett is the synod official in charge of raising funds apart from CMOs. There are well over a dozen full-time district fundraisers.

http://www.christian giving counselors

Liggett states that this solicitation is part of an effort to build an endowment of $300 million dollars by 2018. Liggett believes this goal is attainable because "predictions are that during the coming years our country will see the largest transfer of wealth ever to take place – as much as $45 trillion passing to the next generation”. The letter states that the Schwan Foundation will match giving dollar for dollar. However, a special yellow insert written after the letter was printed said the dollar for dollar match was up to $500,000 and that number has already been met from one large estate gift. So your dollar won’t be matched.

Two endowments were established last October: Mission and Ministerial Education.

More explanation about this fundraising is part of this month's WELS connection. I know how much you all love the catchy jingle..”Come to the ……”

http://www.come to the wels

I have always been a bit skeptical about the solicitation of money by fulltime fundraisers. Jesus himself wasn’t too loving to the Pharisees.

.. “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer; therefore ye shall receive the greater...” Matt. 23:14


comment -

Anonymous said...

This post and its thread seem to be coming to an end. While those of us still here wait for the promised response from Pseudonym, and while I wait for somebody to give me a reason why priesthood and ministry are the same thing, here is something to pass the time:


(Let's see how my HTML knowledge is and if this turns into a link--if not, my apologies to Randomdan. And, doubtless my lack of computer expertise would discredit everything I have written on this site.)

Or, of course, we can jump into the every sunday communion fray. I'd like to stay here until the promised answers arrive, and pass the time with Songs of Praise in the Church of England--or at least the parody of it above.

(Where were you last week?)


Friday, October 26, 2007

AZ/CA Fall 2007 report: - DP Janke

"I attended the ELS-WELS Forum on September 28 as the COP’s representative. The main subject of the forum was “Women Communing Women.” Concerns about this practice arose in both the WELS and the ELS after one WELS congregation called MLC female staff ministry interns to administer communion to female shut-ins. After review of the practice by the COP, the congregation was asked not to continue having women commune women. The congregation complied with the request. The COP conceded in its January 2005 statement on this issue that the Bible doesn’t specifically address this matter, but concluded that for numerous reasons it was not wise to continue having women commune women.

It’s apparent now that the COP’s call to refrain because the practice is “not wise” is not as strong a statement as some in the Evangelical Lutheran Synod were hoping to hear. According the 2006 ELS Synod Report, the ELS has urged its Doctrine Committee, “To continue its discussions with the CICR on the matter of women communing women noting that we unanimously agree that Scripture clearly teaches that women are not to be in the pastoral office, because this presiding office includes the exercise of authority over men (1 Cor. 14:34-35, 1 Tim. 2:11-12). Also, when Scripture refers to one who officiates at the word and sacrament liturgy it speaks in male terms (1 Tim. 3:2, 1 Tim. 4:13). Therefore women shall not read the Scripture lessons in the divine service, preach the sermon, administer Baptism or distribute the Lord’s Supper, for these things are intimately related to the pastoral office.” (Underlining mine) WELS, through its Commission on Inter-Church Relations, clearly needs to continue talking with our brothers in the ELS on this matter, but I hope it’s also clear that we in the WELS—even if there were no concerns from the ELS—are not in a position to have women read Scripture lessons in worship or to have women commune women."

Thursday, October 25, 2007

Synod Issues

A few readers have suggested that I am neglecting important synod issues on this blog. Therefore, I have listed a poll on the right side of the page. Please indicate which topic you believe is the most important or controversial issue facing the WELS today. If I didn’t list your choice please leave a comment about what you see as the most important issue facing the WELS.

Tuesday, October 23, 2007

Dr. Mark Braun's comment in a larger context

I have followed up on Dr. Mark Braun's sermon statement. Dr. Braun had written a longer article about change in CHARIS which is no longer being published. The article written does cite Rev. Bartling as the source for the quote, but in the CHARIS article Dr. Braun does not offer a comment or opinion on Pastor Bartling's statement nor did he in the sermon.

[1] Mark Bartling, “WELS Pastor Says His Church Being Misled by False Theology,” Christian News 43 (November 7, 2005): 1, 10; cited by Mark Braun, “Changes in the Wisconsin Synod,” CHARIS 5 (Lent 2006): 24; http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/charis5-1/Braun.pdf

Pastor Bartling and Dr. Braun have communicated regularly. However, they have not spoken directly about the CHARIS statement or the sermon statement.

Dr. Braun did not attend the C&C conference and was only there to give the closing sermon and did not intend the statement to be a joke (and was surprised when they did laugh). We don't always know how the audience or reader will react.

Monday, October 22, 2007

The Church and Change group is not divisive – Dr. Mark Braun

In his closing sermon at the Church and Change conference Dr. Mark Braun jokes about Rev. Mark Bartling’s understanding of the Church and Change group.

(if this link doesn't work go the churchandchange site and follow the audio link to the sermon)

In his sermon, Dr. Braun says that he recognizes that over the last decade groups in the WELS have become polarized. He even says that “Birds of a feather flock together” (there you go again..oh those Magpies). He further says that these organized groups could be called an ecclesiastical version of political action groups.

Rev. Braun then quotes Rev. Mark Bartling’s article from the Christian News in which Rev. Bartling said “we now have an official group in the WELS entitled Church and Change. The name itself should tell you something is wrong here.”

Dr. Braun pauses in his sermon and the Church and Change congregation erupts in laughter (at the expense of a nameless WELS pastor)

Dr. Braun goes on with his sermon and says he would like to ask this (nameless) pastor (who we know as the Rev. Bartling), “what is wrong here? Is it that we can’t put church and change in the same sentence? or the same title? Is it that if it is the church it can not change and if there is change it better not be in the church!?”

I wonder why he didn’t ask Rev. Bartling these questions directly instead of in a Conference sermon…hmmm.

Dr. Braun’s sermon goes on to emphasis the changeless Gospel in a changing church. I would invite you to listen to this quote and the entire sermon in context and post your responses.

Saturday, October 20, 2007

Church and Change claims Synodical approval

WELS President Schroeder Excited for Church and Change.
(look under the headlines portion of their grandiose web page)

The Church and Change group is claiming the conference was a huge success. I wonder how they are measuring their success?

update -- (Saturday evening)

After doing a bit of research on this issue here is how I see what has happened:

Shortly after the convention, President Schroeder quoted a convention resolution in his letter to pastors and teachers. The convention resolution quoted in the letter called for expanded efforts in world and home missions using both traditional and innovative means. The convention resolution was referring to recent new programs such as daughter missions and out reach programs to ethnic minorities. This resolution was not a blanket endorsement of all “innovative” approaches. The Church and Change leadership must have reached the conclusion that because of the letter to all called workers President Schroeder is “excited” about the Church and Change efforts. I believe that this inaccurate statement on the Church and Change site must be and will be removed.


update -- Sunday 5:30pm CDT


The innacurate claim that President Schroeder is excited is now gone from the Church and Change website.



LM said...

"I am interested in an honest review of the keynote speaker and any workshops if someone was in attendance."

I'd like to see this too. The C&C website has an audio clip of the closing service--I wonder if anyone made audio recordings of the workshops. I'm especially interested in learning more about Pr. Parlow's workshop. The C&C materials say:

"Explore tansferable principles that will help you build a church for outsiders to come to and hear truth that makes a difference now and for eternity. Now is the time to shed ethnic rationalizations, personal preferences, and doomsday attitutdes that are offered as excuses for outreach failures."

I'd like to know what he means by "transferable principles." I've read some his sermons, and I have to say, statements like "The Christian life is a journey closer and closer to the Son. At some point it moves from I’m learning to I’m asking to I’m doing" make me wonder where these so-called "principles" are being transfered from.

The discription of the conference workshops can be found here:


The sermon in refer to can be found here:



Sunday, October 14, 2007

Gender Roles - Submission in Society

A recent comment asked about how the WELS deals with the role of women in society.

Gender Roles Submission in the Dhurch (sic) and World? wels.net


Gender Roles - Shame on Us!

These recent posts from the WELS Q&A try to address this point but basically dances around the issue and doesn't give me a clear answer.

Over a decade ago a WELS doctrinally statement was issued on this topic: Scriptural Principles of Man and Woman Roles. I realize that through the 1990s much debate occurred on this document.

First of all, I would like to examine this document on the issue of women in society.

…..We reject the opinion that male headship and female submission apply only to marriage or only to marriage and the church (1 Co 11:3; 1 Ti 2:12).

Not long ago I specifically asked a WELS DP if it would be sinning for a woman to go against her husband’s vote in a political election. He asked “why would she do that?.” He also said it would be a sin? (Yet women lectors and Bible leaders are allowed.)

Is the position of submission in society by women taught by WELS pastors or ignored?

A contrary view published by former WELS pastors from:


Here is a link to what they wrote: Heirs Together Of the Gracious Gift of Life

As I'm sure most of you know this document caused a stir in the WELS over a decade ago. The authors were booted from the WELS for disagreeing with the WELS position on the role of women in society.

Church and Change Conference Kicks Off

On the eve of the annual Church and Change conference doesn't the Church and Change website make it look as if President Schroeder has asked the C&C group to carry out a synodical resolution? www.Church and Change

Maybe the president will be in attendance or maybe even speak at the conference.

Remember there is an invitation for a C&C conference review on BW for anyone attending the conference.

Tuesday, October 9, 2007


I came across a new word today: Churchianity

Some of you might have heard of this before but it is new to me. I wondered what side of the aisle to put this term. Since a search landed me on more WELS church websites than LCMS churches I guess that is the side on which it goes. As Luther would say: What does this mean?

If you want to find out more just drop by this church:


According to the latest online definition it means:

is a pejorative term used to describe practices of Christianity that are viewed as placing a larger emphasis on the habits of church life or the institutional traditions of a specific Christian denomination than on the teachings of Jesus.

It can also be used to describe churches across many denominations where the central focus has moved from Christ to the church. Hence the replacement of Christ with church in the word churchianity.

So than if if we are leaving behind churchianity how does this term effect our worship practices? We don't need to quibble over Divine Service or Worship Service because I guess there would be no service. With this type of perspective we don't have to worry about churches anymore. Again I'm not making a joke about WELS doctrine. I'm just pointing out what I observe and questions that come to mind.

How about synodianity?

Where is this coming from? It has been said if you want to know what your pastor believes look at his library (today it is his electronic reading list).

Here is one WELS reading list..www.churchgrowth.com

So is Churchianity a problem in the WELS?

Defining Terms --

Missouri ...........................................................WELS Terms


Divine Service ................................................... Worship Service

High Church .............................................................. Low Church

Roman collars ......................................... ................ black geneva

processions with altar boy.............jeans for the blended service

bowing before the altar and all that...........................

Church and Ministry

OHM ..........................................Public Ministry (blue catechism)

Auxiliary roles

DCE ....................................................................... Staff Minister

Innovative Group

Jesus First...................................................Church and Change


St. Louis (Cardinals)..................................... Milwaukee (Packers)

Fellowship Issues

Boy Scouts .............................................................Boy Pioneers

Open Prayer ..................................................................WELS only

Christian News..................................No dissenting voices allowed

I was told that I have been confusing terms that are exclusive to Missouri and the WELS. Not being completely familiar with the usage feel free to correct or add to the list. (pardon the formating problems)

Sunday, October 7, 2007

Guest Blogger on Pres. Schroeder's recent visit to MLC

Michael Schottey has posted an excellent summary of Pres. Schroeder's visit to MLC


Follow this link to the report.. Pres. Schroeder at MLC

Monday, October 1, 2007

Rev. Ash's response to a letter Pres. Schroeder sent to all WELS pastors

from the Church and Change discussion forum:

President Schroeder asked us to especially pay attention to a resolution which was passed at the lastest synod convention. One of the resolves reads: "that we commit ourselves to expand mission efforts at home and throughout the world, using both traditional and innovative means of Gospel outreach, as God provides the resources..." We believe our Church And Change convention on October15-17, 2007, is one of the resources which the Lord is providing to help our people learn about "innovative means of Gospel outreach" which they might employ in their own congregation. Each devotional service will include a different format which will allow you to discover various new ways technology can be used such as powerpoint, video clips, etc. You can to go our website for information concerning the convention and to register online www.churchandchange.org

Rev. Ash