Bailing Water: Church and Change claims Synodical approval

Saturday, October 20, 2007

Church and Change claims Synodical approval

WELS President Schroeder Excited for Church and Change.
(look under the headlines portion of their grandiose web page)

The Church and Change group is claiming the conference was a huge success. I wonder how they are measuring their success?
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update -- (Saturday evening)

After doing a bit of research on this issue here is how I see what has happened:

Shortly after the convention, President Schroeder quoted a convention resolution in his letter to pastors and teachers. The convention resolution quoted in the letter called for expanded efforts in world and home missions using both traditional and innovative means. The convention resolution was referring to recent new programs such as daughter missions and out reach programs to ethnic minorities. This resolution was not a blanket endorsement of all “innovative” approaches. The Church and Change leadership must have reached the conclusion that because of the letter to all called workers President Schroeder is “excited” about the Church and Change efforts. I believe that this inaccurate statement on the Church and Change site must be and will be removed.

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update -- Sunday 5:30pm CDT

www.churchandchange.org

The innacurate claim that President Schroeder is excited is now gone from the Church and Change website.

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comment

LM said...: "I am interested in an honest review of the keynote speaker and any workshops if someone was in attendance."

I'd like to see this too. The C&C website has an audio clip of the closing service--I wonder if anyone made audio recordings of the workshops. I'm especially interested in learning more about Pr. Parlow's workshop. The C&C materials say:

"Explore tansferable principles that will help you build a church for outsiders to come to and hear truth that makes a difference now and for eternity. Now is the time to shed ethnic rationalizations, personal preferences, and doomsday attitutdes that are offered as excuses for outreach failures."

I'd like to know what he means by "transferable principles." I've read some his sermons, and I have to say, statements like "The Christian life is a journey closer and closer to the Son. At some point it moves from I’m learning to I’m asking to I’m doing" make me wonder where these so-called "principles" are being transfered from.

The discription of the conference workshops can be found here:

http://www.churchandchange.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=8980&sec_id=2384

The sermon in refer to can be found here:

http://stmarkpartners.org/images/sermons/Journey_-_white_belt%20_Sept.%209_.pdf

LM

22 comments:

Michael Schottey said...: Having spoke to President Schroeder (he says all the cool kids call him Prez), I do not think thats a very clear cut explanation of what he said.

President Schroeder does not endorse either Issues in WELS nor Church in Change. Rather Church in Change took his statements and twisted them to their own personal 'mission' look carefully at where they insert their own definitions in the caption of his picture.

"new and innovative ways of reaching people with the gospel."

To me, that says everything about traditional home and world missions, and new and innovative "daughter" and "sister" missions; preaching outposts; medical missions...new ways of doing what we've been doing all along.; October 20, 2007 at 10:28 AM
John said...: Mike,

It is my understanding that the Prez has not had direct communication with the Church and Change group.

BUT the C&C website certainly implies that the Prez has given his blessing to the "methods" of the C&C group.

I hope that if the Prez has not given his blessing to the C&C group, he would ask them to take down his "quote." The changers are taking a synodical resolution and claiming synodical approval.; October 20, 2007 at 10:54 AM
Anonymous said...: The way that C&C is using the picture of President Schroeder and the synodical resolution is completely fraudulent, deceitful, and disgusting. The sad thing is how many people in the synod are being won over by their half-truths, lies, and deceptions.; October 20, 2007 at 11:02 AM
Anonymous said...: John wrote:

"I hope that if the Prez has not given his blessing to the C&C group, he would ask them to take down his "quote." The changers are taking a synodical resolution and claiming synodical approval."

If that's how you feel, have you told Pres. Schroeder that?; October 20, 2007 at 1:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Matthew 12:25
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

LOOK OUT WELS!!!; October 20, 2007 at 1:50 PM
Anonymous said...: "If that's how you feel, have you told Pres. Schroeder that?"

Off-topic again, eh, a wels pastor?

You won't answer anyone's questions to you on another post, but you will grace us with your presence to hit John over the head with Matthew 18? Very useful.; October 20, 2007 at 2:24 PM
Michael Schottey said...: "A WELS Pastor"

I speak for myself mostly, but I know John has had contact with Schroeder as well. I have talked with Schroeder and I believe that he has not had any personal contact with the organization. He spoke at length about the difference in taking "Methods" from other church bodies, and "Methodologies"

I too hope that he has not given his blessing, and I believe him to have not because it would have gone completely against the grain of his former statements.

This is 100% a twisting of the facts by a camp that is underfire and trying to find help at all costs, even if it means degrading the synod president.; October 20, 2007 at 3:05 PM
John said...: A WELS Pastor...

You may well be surprised but Mike is right, I have contacted Prez. Schroeder on this very issue. I know that C&C is misrepresenting his position.

I will ask the president if I can post he words on my blog.

So now what mr. WELS pastor. Are you offended by this misrepresentation?? Please answer...; October 20, 2007 at 3:26 PM
Anonymous said...: You know, the whole "President Schroeder excited for Church and Change" headline is downright laughable. First of all, if you read the "press release" or whatever it is, you will notice that whoever runs the website isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. First of all, spelling and grammar mistakes abound. Second of all, if you check the "logic" of why SP Schroeder is "excited" about Church and Change, you will notice that it is childish.

It goes something like this:

1. President Schroeder stressed the importance of several convention resolutions in a letter to pastors.
2. One of those resolutions mentions "innovative" things.
3. We at Church and Change are innovators.
4. Therefore, we are carrying out a convention resolution.
5. Furthermore, since we are doing that, Pres. Schroeder is "excited" about it.

It's absurd. The sheer presumptuousness of it is self-evident. Its an organization trying to make an image of legitimacy while at the same time promoting the bastard child (Church Growth) of a prostituted theology (American Evangelicalism).

Those with theological eyes will see the ruse for what it is. Having a Synod president's approval means nothing anyway. We see the bad theology, and that is what causes concern, not the lack of approval from the Synod administration.; October 20, 2007 at 7:21 PM
Anonymous said...: I mentioned in the other post that my pastor attended the conference. I will ask him if the president attended.

I am not in favor of the methodology applied by the C&C but I don't feel comfortable speaking out due to possible repercussions.

I am disappointed if President Schroeder is truly "excited" about the Church and Change group. This group is divisive by its very name.

a "dubious" WELS teacher; October 20, 2007 at 8:24 PM
Anonymous said...: John -

Thanks for the post and update. I do hope that the WELS pastor has the guts to come back on and offer an apology.; October 20, 2007 at 9:56 PM
Michael Schottey said...: anonymous (Oct 20@9:56)

1) You post as anonymous, you would be wise to not refer to anyone else's guts.

2) As a holy minister, that man still deserves your respect.

3) The Lord commands that all of our actions, law and gospel, need to be done out of love. Did the Reverend need a gentle reproach? Perhaps, but maybe it would suffice with what John and I said, and maybe he would privately apologize to John. There is no love in calling out someone's manhood.

If you wish to help your brother with the speck in his eye, remove your own plank first--and if you just want others to see your brother's speck and further deride him, shame on you.; October 20, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear A WELS teacher:

It is sad that many off us in the WELS need to hid our Confessional identity because of what has and is happening in the WELS (ie. read the thread below especially the Bergs comments and history).

What is even sadder is to see the C&C group gloating about how they are now guiding the direction of the synod.

It will be interesting to see who the next confessional casualty might be.; October 20, 2007 at 10:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Wow...this is my first visit to this blog and wow...

First of all, I am shocked if your story is true that President Schroeder did not give his approval to the Church and Change group. How can they lay claim to him being excited?

I am on the list serve for the Church and Change group and it has been pretty quiet. I knew that the conference was being held last week. But they are very quick to put up such rave reviews about the success of the conference.

Now they run right over the President...actually I think that they have just thrown him under the bus!

a WELS member; October 21, 2007 at 12:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Maybe President Schroeder is excited. I don't think Church and Change would self-promote without his approval.

Also, the self-perpetuating negativism on this blog is ridiculous.; October 21, 2007 at 5:30 PM
Anonymous said...: Regarding the aforementioned childish reasoning:

Expecting sound, mature reasoning from a ministry that denounces reasoning at every opportunity is a quantum leap if not a paradox.; October 21, 2007 at 9:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Did you ever think his picture and supposed endorsement is off the C and C site because it's done and over with?; October 22, 2007 at 11:24 AM
Anonymous said...: Ironic that the Prez. was attributed with a statement he never made, yet at least one the Pastors that identifies with the C&C group preaches sermons without ever identifying them as written by someone else. Is it such a great leap to go from preaching someone elses sermons as your own to putting your own words in someone else's mouth?; October 22, 2007 at 1:27 PM
John said...: Thank you.

Your welcome. I was directed by the commenter "a WELS pastor" to research this issue which I did and it did involve contacting the synodical president.

I do appreciate the fact that this link was removed. I also assume that the C&C leadership apologized for their "mistake." But I don't know this.

I am interested in an honest review of the keynote speaker and any workshops if someone was in attendance.; October 22, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Anonymous said...: "I am interested in an honest review of the keynote speaker and any workshops if someone was in attendance."

I'd like to see this too. The C&C website has an audio clip of the closing service--I wonder if anyone made audio recordings of the workshops. I'm especially interested in learning more about Pr. Parlow's workshop. The C&C materials say:

"Explore tansferable principles that will help you build a church for outsiders to come to and hear truth that makes a difference now and for eternity. Now is the time to shed ethnic rationalizations, personal preferences, and doomsday attitutdes that are offered as excuses for outreach failures."

I'd like to know what he means by "transferable principles." I've read some his sermons, and I have to say, statements like "The Christian life is a journey closer and closer to the Son. At some point it moves from I’m learning to I’m asking to I’m doing" make me wonder where these so-called "principles" are being transfered from.

The discription of the conference workshops can be found here:

http://www.churchandchange.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=8980&sec_id=2384

The sermon in refer to can be found here:

http://stmarkpartners.org/images/sermons/Journey_-_white_belt%20_Sept.%209_.pdf

LM; October 22, 2007 at 5:40 PM
Anonymous said...: WHY THE NEED FOR CHURCH AND CHANGE? If the religious leaders in WELS would listen to God and do what he says, God will be with them unto the end. The problem is that the leaders play games with religion and do their own thing -- including misleading members. Members sense it even if they cannot fully articulate it. There is no need for CHURCH AND CHANGE if the clergy will "Go and teach all nations" as directed.; October 23, 2007 at 8:41 AM
Pastor Fred Guldberg said...: I was at church and change. I thought conference was wonderful and very encouraging. I told people who asked me that it was like a ministry candy store- so many wonderful ideas for sharing the gospel.

I went to JP's workshop. I thought it was insightful and well done.

I thought the keynote speaker also said some insightful things. He also gave good reasons for change. There was a doctrinal survey of our people that was done recently. The results were disappointing.

Was anyone else present at C&C 07 that can add to the discussion? I'd be happy to try to answer any other questions.

Who's the guy who thinks Church and Change is divisive by its name alone? Why do you think that?

Pastor Fred Guldberg
Star of Bethlehem
Winston Salem, NC; November 6, 2007 at 1:15 PM