I would like to share with you a new blog that has entered the arena.
http://freddyfinkelstein.blogspot.com/
I think that it is important to invite more voices into the discussion. This summer could be a pivotal point in Lutheranism as a new direction maybe chosen.
62 comments:
I don't quite understand how someone, so staunch behind their beliefs, could post their writings under a pseudo name and then go so far as to create a blog under the same pseudo name. There's actually a person named "Freddy Finkelstein" out there in the real world which wouldn't be that amazing if your name was honestly Freddy Finkelstein, but since it's not, there's a strangeness about it.
What would happen if the WELS would break, one side sticking to traditional worship, and the other side doing contemporary worship (i.e., one side saying their sticking to Confessional doctrine worship, the other side utilizing Church Growth methods)? Would that be fine with everyone?
YEP!
Are you saying your mother actually named you Lemkeel. And one word like Madonna or Seal?
Your comments are hypocritical.
"We find this attitude of tolerance quite frequently among unionists. It is often used to assuage a troubled conscience, one's own as well as that of others; for the unionist declares that every one may continue to hold his own private convictions and merely needs to respect and tolerate those of another. This attitude is totally wrong, for it disregards two important factors: (a) in tolerating divergent doctrines one either denies the perspicuity and clarity of the Scriptures, or one grants to error the right to exist alongside of truth, or one evidences indifference over against Biblical truth by surrendering its absolute validity; and (b) in allowing two opposite views concerning one doctrine to exist side by side, one has entered upon an inclined plane which of necessity leads ever further into complete doctrinal indifference, as may plainly be seen from the most calamitous case on record, viz., the Prussian Union."
M. Reu, In the Interest of Lutheran Unity, Columbus: The Lutheran Book Concern, 1940, p. 20.
Good question....is WELS drifting towards civil war?
Reading blogs like this, you would almost think so.
However, discussions like this are undertaken by a relatively small minority within WELS.
I would say overall the convention this July will:
#1. Not address any overt doctrinal issues
#2. Not make any drastic changes, such as closing a prep school or making fundamental strategy changes
#3. Undertake any true long term planning...most votes will be along "feel good" lines like happened in 2007
Brett - I can see why my words may seem hypocritical, afterall I don't sign my full name. However, the name I use, Lemkeel, is my full last name and first to letters of my first name. Another anonymous poster previously posted my real name, it's on one of these threads if you're curious. While I don't sign my full name, or nick name for that matter, the name I do use is enough to identify me by my legal last name. It's not like I'm choosing some other name and using that as my name. I understand a desire to remain anonymous, but at some point, when making certain statements that make damning charges at a group of people, not signing your name at best seems like cowardice. It seems absurd to me that people are referring to some great work done by some great blogger by a pseudo name. Now, if that choice is made out of humility or because the individual chooses not to draw attention to oneself, then it may appear to be more admirable. However, if the choice to use a pseudo name is done because s/he's afraid of being judged/criticized or even being excommunicated, there's a clear sign of weakness on that person's part. It sets an example that says "you can make charges against someone or a group of people but not identify yourself and therefore be held responsible for your words/actions." Not the kind of precedent I call admirable.
I couldn't find anything on the Internet about "unionists," other than people referred to during the Civil War and some people in the Democratic party in the US political system. Perhaps in church doctrine or theology, unionism is not a good thing. At the same time, the question I pose to you would be why is it that there are so many different religious bodies with so many different doctrines/theologies? Furthermore, how is it that your doctrine is correct, while everyone else's is wrong? With all due respect, Brett, cause I do respect you and your aspirations/beliefs, but at times you sound a little paranoid. It's good for all to be somewhat paranoid or concerned, but as with all things, too much of anything usually results in more bad than good.
I don't blame Freddy for posting anonymously at all. The WELS enforces supposed doctrinal unity not through study of the Word, but through intimidation. The Church and Changers have not hesitated to kick out pastors and to besmirch the families of laypeople who dared to question them. They play dirty with the facade of being sooooo loving.
Unfortunately, through initiation rites at the prep schools, the college, and especially the Seminary, it has been ingrained in WELS pastors that you are never to question authority, that you will be in a world of hurt if you try to think for yourself. Thus, WELS pastors who see the deadly influence of Church Growth in the synod will boldly denounce it privately during coffee breaks, but won't whisper a word in public because they're afraid of the consequences.
I admit that WELS pastors and laymen should be bold enough to stand up for the truth and suffer whatever may come, but when men's lives and careers and families are on the line, I can understand the hesitancy.
Oh I think the synod must address these doctrinal issures at this next convention. Many people I know are waiting to see which way they will lean. Any indication that they will not straighten up and fly right leaves me looking around for another church. We split from the Missouri Synod in 1961 over less. I do see a divide in the future.
Lemkeel, you don't have a valid position on the whole name thing. Just my opinion.
And when you say, "Perhaps..." you sound more like JK when he said, "Maybe we all have it wrong" when talking about the doctrine of Justification. Christ commanded in 2 Cor. 6:14, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
You ask, "the question I pose to you would be why is it that there are so many different religious bodies with so many different doctrines/theologies?" There is only one true Christian doctrine clearly taught by Scripture and plainly confessed in the Lutheran Confessions. There is only one central doctrine of Christian faith, the three solas doctrine of Justification by faith alone. Without at least a mustard seed of faith in everything this doctrine teaches a person will die eternally. God judges the heart. Based on 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" and 2 Tim. 4:2 (below) we can discern, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, between false doctrine and true doctrine by using Scripture and the Lutheran Confesssions. There are false doctrines because people are led by thier own sinful flesh and Satan and his demons.
Lemkeel you state, "but as with all things, too much of anything usually results in more bad than good." I disagree when it comes to faithfully applying God's Word.
zealous –adjective full of, characterized by, or due to zeal; ardently active, devoted, or diligent.
Synonyms:
enthusiastic, eager, fervid, fervent, intense, passionate, warm.
Galations 4:18, "But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you."
Rev 3:19, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
2 Timothy 4:2, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
I have what the false doctrine of UOJ does not - I have the Holy Spirit's faith which God has worked in me, sanctifies in me by the Word purely taught and read and Sacrament rightly distributed and received.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett, I get the impression that you are not a member of a local congregation. From whom are you receiving the Sacrament?
1 Corinthians 10:21, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."
The Lutheran Synods have drunk deeply from the cup of devils. The WELS is taught at the feet of New Age Satanist Leonard Sweet and worship with denominations that reject Justification without works. The ELS changes doctrine to fit into the shoes of WELS and embraces their mini Pope. The LCMS bows before the Antichrist, welcoming him in the name of every LCMS member. They all give money to Thrivent which uses it to murder unborn babies and men, women and children around the world through Lutheran World Relief. You won't have to wait long to see what your seeds have sown.
Brett, You missed my point on the maybe thing. All I was saying was that we are kidding ourselves if we think we know it all. There are Christians in the invisible church of varying degrees that will be in heaven someday regardless of the bilge you spew here. Just because they don't believe as you do doesn't make them unbelievers! Once again you take things out of context for your own agenda. We are all believers here!!! And you apply 2 Cor. 6:14 ???? Shame on you!!
JK
Brett belongs to the only orthodox convocation still known to exist... MMILS (The "Me Myself and I Lutheran Synod"). They are not worried about numbers, nor missions, nor really much of anything except making everyone aware of how right they are and calling those outside the synod the "unbelieving spawn of satan." If memory serves, the MMILS's theme chorale is: "Don't Come Too Near, Your Doctrine is So Queer!" (sung to the tune of Lift High the Cross)
Sorry, couldn't resist. I know I shouldn't "feed the bears." :) My bad. Thank goodness for confession and absolution once again this week. Hangin' my head....
Sigh.
Once again Brett has hijacked a good discussion.
John, can't you create a special "Brett corner" of your blog for Brett to go to to ramble on so the rest of us can have an actual conversation?
JK, you are either grossly inarticulate or you are not telling the truth. Your quote in context is, "No denomination is
perfect. But sometimes you have to see the forest instead of the
trees. And I don't think you understand it. Couple to that the
fact that there is terminology that isn't always used correctly
when defining it which may be a part of the problem. Maybe
none of us have it right." June 9, 2009 10:01AM. And to clarify we weren't talking about how to stripe the church parking lot the discussion your comment was responding to was Scriptures three solas Justification. The Central article of Christian faith.
JK, my opinion is that you don't believe that the Lutheran Confessions are 100% correct explanation of Christ's doctrine. And you don't believe it's possible for a Christian church to abide by those confessions 100% because you really don't know if they are correct cause Geee, there's so many people who say the Bible teaches something different.
I would state that no congregation is perfect and they will error but the Holy Ghost works in us the desire to correct those errors in the way Christ commanded and using Scripture and the Confessions return to faithfully confessing the Word in doctrine and practice.
What bilge have I spewed?
Anonymous you quote, "unbelieving spawn of satan" where did that quote come from? Neither of you have any specific passage of Scripture to refute anything I've said. You take offense that I quote Scripture. And yet JK has the gall to read every Anonymous heart that reads and posts to the blog and declare, "We're all believers here!" in an attempt to shame me because I judge the public practice and doctrine of the WELS.
And Anonymous your attempt at chastising me by saying, "They are not worried about numbers.." is a compliment.
WELS, your convention will have many such people and opinions as is represented by JK and Anonymous which the administration will coddle and coo over because they are soft and pliable in regards to the Word. Enjoy your convention.
I give up Brett. You are right. I'm a lot happier muddling through my gray world this side of heaven than trying to measure up in your black and white one. Peace.
JK
Anonymous on June 26, 11:44am, you ask, "From whom are you receiving the Sacrament?"
My family and I attend Bethany Lutheran services over the internet. Pastor Greg Jackson is our Pastor and rightly consecrates the bread and wine following Christs Words and command.
Brett, with regularity you call WELS the spawn of satan and toss us into the category of unbelievers. So, I'm sorry if I didn't quote you verbatim. I was attempting to give a short sampling phrase in keeping with your regular "tone." (Or, doesn't it fit?)
Like Paul (and God) I am worried about those who are numbered among the unbelievers and will do everything I can to witness to them about the saving, sacrificial death of Christ. You know, that "Christ crucified" message we are to share with the widest number possible before we leave this life. At any rate, I'm sorry I rattled your cage! Well, not so much :)
We'll enjoy our convention Brett, as we gather around the Word and Sacrament. And, Brett, be sure to enjoy your convention of one :)
You are amusing when you go off your meds! I have to give you that!
"Brett, with regularity you call WELS the spawn of satan and toss us into the category of unbelievers."
Quote and reference where I have ever called WELS "the spawn of satan."
Brett, or others,
Would you please connect the dots for me?
Thrivent gives $$ to Lutheran World Relief, and LWR supports "family planning." ('Family planning' is code for "abortions and abortiofacient drugs.")
Is that the connection? Thrivent giving to LWR, knowing they provide family planning? Is it recent/ongoing?
Thanks for your time and firepower.
+Diet O. Worms
Thrivent pools and distributes money between the Lutheran Synods. ELCA which receives their share of ELS, WELS, LCMS money uses a portion of that to pay for abortions for their clergy and called workers. "The ELCA funds elective abortions in the church’s health care coverage for pastors and professional church workers, and some Lutheran-affiliated hospital perform elective abortions." http://www.pregnantpause.org/people/wherchur.htm "The insurance provided for ELCA clergy and church workers pays for abortion." http://www.cdispatch.com/opinions/article.asp?aid=1694
WELS Justification https://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?process&procID=1518&cuQA_qaID=1&cuTopic_topicID=16&cuItem_itemID=10614
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=63&cuItem_itemID=15166
Thrivent gives a significant amount of money to Lutheran World Relief (LWR - primarily a joint venture between the LCMS and ELCA)which gives money directly to the United Nations which has and is murdering millions around the globe and is the central organization in the establishment of the New World Order and the reign of the Antichrist. LWR describes themselves this way, Unionism, "Lutheran World Relief is a ministry of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), individuals and parish groups in international relief, development, advocacy and social responsibility." Earth worship, "LWR's advocacy positions are guided by three principles: emphasis on the rights of all people; respect for the planet; and support for human dignity." Socialism, "At the same time, peacebuilding efforts must be tied to the very causes of conflict itself – inequities –"
http://www.lwr.org/ourwork/peaceandjustice/index.asp
Increase your impact! Members of Thrivent Financial for Lutherans can have their gifts matched through Thrivent’s GivingPlus program... check to see if your employer will match your gift to LWR. http://www.lwr.org/about/docs/2007ar.pdf
Cont -
Cont -
LWR partners with the United Nations Foundation http://www.unfoundation.org/your-role/partners/organization/lutheran-world-relief.html Sustainable Development is UN code for depopulation. http://web.unfpa.org/pds/poverty.htm "Lower fertility and slower population growth temporarily increase the relative size of the workforce, opening an historic, one-time only demographic window. With fewer dependent children and older dependents relative to a larger, healthier working-age population, countries can make additional investments that can spur economic growth and help reduce poverty." "The Millennium Development Goals, particularly the eradication of extreme poverty and hunger, cannot be achieved if questions of population and reproductive health are not squarely addressed. —United Nations Secretary-General, Kofi A. Annan, 2002"
"As a faith-based membership organization, Thrivent Financial recognizes the important work performed by Lutheran World Relief in helping people help themselves with long-term solutions to disasters and poverty," said Brad Hewitt, senior vice president of Fraternal Operations for Thrivent Financial. "The WAVE OF GIVING(c) exemplifies their long-term view of this indescribable situation. We're happy to give to such a great initiative, and we encourage Thrivent Financial members everywhere to do
the same." http://www.interaction.org/newswire/detail.php?id=3570
ALDE (Association of Lutheran Development Executives) shows ELCA, LCMS and WELS working together with Thrivent financing http://www.alde.org/Portals/alde/docs/Teams/Resource/2006-07RosterResource.pdf
ALDE is a joint effort in fundraising. 1989 – The former Lutheran Brotherhood (LB), now also Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, began providing grants that afforded ALDE new opportunities to involve internationally known presenters in its conferences. Concordia Mutual Life and Lutheran Life of Canada also provide scholarship grants for ALDE members. Strong partnerships are also valued with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod foundations.
Under Who We Are: "Connections. They are essential to every aspect of our lives - personal, spiritual and professional. While they tie us to our past and ground us in tradition and identity, connections are key to moving forward. As Christians, we value connections to our past, to the larger community and to each other. These connections tie us together in community and move us forward in faith for service in and to the world."
For persons who have had it with WELS, check out the CLC.
For a religion better aligned with the Word of God, check out "The Church of the Lutheran Confession."
The CLC is a confessional Lutheran church body which is dedicated to proclaiming the Good News of Christ crucified for sinners. It is represented by congregations throughout the United States and Canada, as well as in Africa and India.
Our teachings and practices are as narrow and broad as the Scriptures themselves, since we bow only to the authority of our Lord's inerrant Word. The salvation won for us through the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the driving force behind our efforts as a confessional Lutheran church.
All of the CLC member churches confess that the Bible is the inspired and unerring Word of God. They confess the creeds of the Lutheran Church without qualification, as they are found in the Book of Concord of 1580. Scripture itself is the source and foundation of Christian teaching and faith -- The Lutheran confessions are a faithful setting forth of what Scripture teaches. The name of our church body is a witness to what we believe; it is a continual reminder of our responsibility to be truly Lutheran, and therefore Scriptural in our teaching and in our practice. This principle holds true among us: "If it is not Scripture; it is not Lutheran!"
Please feel free to contact the congregation nearest you for more information about the CLC! (See listing of congregations)
CLC teaches the false doctrine that the entire unbelieving world has been declared by God to be forgiven and justified in Christ. They teach an anti Christian doctrine for the central article.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
CLC Pastors Paul Tiefel and David Koenig published their wretched "While It Is Day," which praised and copied material from the Reformed and Roman Catholics. They support the Church Growth Movement in WELS and their own little fading sect.
Brett,
You keep hammering the UOJ issue and correct me if I am wrong, but you are of the same opinion as Greg Jackson, are you not? In his book Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, (copyright 1993) he talks about UOJ as well as SJ and even quotes Luther recognizing it.
JK
Joe, my opinions (confession) regarding the false doctrine of UOJ can be found in these online discussions: the most recent which you were involved in can be found here,
http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2009/05/synod-convention.html
and here,
http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2009/02/wels-woes.html
oh, and here too,
http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2009/03/making-stronger-and-clearer.html
To date I don't have any issue with statements made by Pastor Jackson regarding the false doctrine of UOJ.
Joe, it would be great if you would submit a post that quotes and references the specific items you are referring to so that everyone, myself included, can test what your contention is.
Also, do you confess that the Lutheran Confessions, The Book of Concord, is 100% correct? And if you don't believe it is could you list the doctrines with which you disagree with the Lutheran Confessions?
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
For the sake of newer viewers, could you please translate the abbreviations you use?
From UOJ, it seems "OJ" is Objective Justification. What is the "U"? Universal?
What about SJ? Is the "J" Justification?
What is it that Brett and others disagree about Objective Justification. Does he believe that Jesus' death on the cross did not pay for the sins of the whole world, and throughout history? John 3:16 would seem to indicate that He did, though Scripture makes it plain not all will accept God's gracious gift of Christ's once-for-all perfect sacrifice for sin. God desires that all will be saved--yet we know that some will reject this salvation (i.e. Judas). If Brett et al. reject this doctrine, what does he believe? The "TULIP" of Calvinism (including "Limited Atonement")? -Just wondering. I just found the blog today, and I'm trying to fllow the discussion. Thanks!
-rde-
RDE, the links in the post above yours cover the issue thoroughly. Read through those and if you have questions feel free to ask.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett,
Time and time again you take my words; twist them, take them out of context and quite frankly I don't have the time to wade through every essay you post on the web.
rde,
Brett Meyer et al claim that WELS believes a brand of UOJ that pronounces 'saints in hell' (what an oxymoron) forgiven. This is a perspective issue in my opinion and is not condoned by WELS. In their opinion this opens the door to enthusiasm and pietism and ultimately church growth which leads to fellowship issues with those not of the Lutheran Confessions.
Jesus paid the debt (death) for all sins. To me this means that the souls now in hell were at one time forgiven (when they walked this earth). However, they rejected the gift of faith and forgiveness and died in their sins. They are now judged and live in eternal damnation and are no longer forgiven. I know I will probably get flamed for not explaining that thoroughly enough, but that's all the time I have right now. Maybe someone else will chime in.
Hope this helps.
JK
It is disingenuous to paint WELS with the broad brush of false doctrine. Statements are blown up to paint a majority of WELS as "Church and Change" or "Church Growth", when out here in the local congregations we are nothing but pure confessional Lutherans.
I continue to keep an open mind to the issues that are being presented about false doctrine and will read more, but I am concerned that we are offending people with inflammatory words. Speaking in patience and love while holding firm to Scripture as a basis for our concerns of our brother's worship practices seems a better approach.
Check out the new blog--
www.ichabodthegloryisdeparted.blogspot.com
I don't know which synod is in a bigger mess these days, Missouri or Wisconsin. Confessional Lutheranism is sure suffering and Satan has to be ecstatic.
I accidentally came across this article while looking for something else and I thought of Brett. Read it and have a laugh.
http://www.cracked.com/article_17469_p1.html
LCMS and WELS and all other synods have problems. LCMS has issues that are much more publicly recognizable within the congregations and synod convention meetings of the past 12 years.
Confessional Lutherans exist in great numbers in both synods, but the LCMS has more vocal liberal voices. But only God can judge the hearts of man as to their confession.
The official response to Joe's assertion that the WELS doesn't teach there are saints in hell was formulated and circulated by WELS professor Dr. Siegbert W. Becker on Objective Justification.
Joe's contention is obliterated here: http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2009/06/wels-stop-lying-about-kokomo.html
Mr. Lund, it is imperitive that the WELS' false doctrine of UOJ is shown for what it is. They teach this to men, women and children as the gospel. It is your central article. Justification is the central article of Christ's doctrine. WELS and the other Lutheran synods have destroyed the central article which if a person confesses incorrectly they are not a Christian. Pretty important.
LCMS was WELS, I believe Confessional Lutheranism is receiving no less than what Christ suffered. And by the grace of God is strengthened in Word and Sacrament and will endure to the end. The WELS and New Age Emergent church is not of God and will be burnt up.
Anonymous, there's far too much information readily available on the internet and bookstores that rejects your claim. You are complicit in the antichristian activity.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Confessional Lutheranism isn't suffering nearly as much as non-confessional "Lutheranism." Check out Lutheran Forum some time and what ELCA has in store for it this August. It's not very Lutheran and all so queer what can pass in some circles as "Lutheranism." I especially invite you to check out "It's Not About Homosexuality...Not Really." IMO they will need their lifeboats ready.
Well spoken, Lund. It would be nice if everyone's affiliation could be noted here so extemists like Meyers and Jackson could be viewed through the appropriate filter.
JK - WELS
Joe Krohn, how about you start with claiming your affiliation. Answer this often asked question but never answered by you, "Do you, Joe Krohn, accept unequivocally the entire Book of Concord?"
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
>>>Anonymous, there's far too much information readily available on the internet and bookstores that rejects your claim. You are complicit in the antichristian activity.<<<
Yikes, I'm "complicit in the antichristian activity" for posting a link to a humorous website?!? Wow. And you're basing your conspiracy theories on "information readily available on the internet"?!? I hate to break this to you but most of the stuff you read on the net is not true. No wonder you come up with such crazy ideas.
By the way, the article makes some pretty good points about the supposed New World Order.
1. If the UN is supposedly some all-powerful entity that rules the world, then why can't they even get a tiny country like Mauritania to outlaw slavery? Why do nations regularly defy the UN without consequence? Sounds like a pretty piss-poor all-powerful entity.
2. If a secret cabal of the world's elites is working toward world unity, then why is the world in just as much (if not more) chaos then ever before? You'd think the world's elites would get their act together after a few centuries. Doesn't sound very "elite" to me.
3. Why do conspiracy nuts claim that whatever happens is part of the conspiracy? If the economy is good it's proof that the Illuminati are funneling money to the evil corporations. If the economy is bad it's proof that they are devaluing national currencies to establish global currency. If there's peace it's proof that they are creating global rule. If there's war it's proof that they are destroying the old order to create a new one. You conspiracy nuts can't have it both ways.
I want to thank the person--whoever he or she is--who has started up the Ichabod mirror site. Someone needs to stand up to the theological garbage Jackson and Meyer are promoting!
www.ichabodthegloryisdeparted.blogspot.com
>>>Someone needs to stand up to the theological garbage Jackson and Meyer are promoting! <<<
Amen!!
Sorry to sabatoge this topic but I don't know how else to ask this question.
I was recently participating in a conversation comparing college and graduate level educations. I'm unable to find any faculty information on MLC's website. Does anyone know where I can find out qualifications for teaching at MLC?
Do MLC professors have their doctorates? And if so, are they degreed in the fields they are teaching? Does anyone know where I can acquire this information. I'm looking for factual, not hearsay.
How does MLC's accredation compare professionally to other schools. Can grads teach in non-WELS schools (should they so choose or if they do not receive calls?)
Anonymous' you both state, "Someone needs to stand up to the theological garbage Jackson and Meyer are promoting!"
Please substantiate your claim. What theological garbage are we promoting and why is it garbage? Please provide Scriptural and Confessional quotes and links that support your claim.
There's a good chance you are talking about my repudiation of the WELS false doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. Pick one aspect of this doctrine, post Scriptural and Confessional quotes and references that support your contention so that, remaining focused on a single point, it can be seen who is promoting theological garbage.
To Joe Krohn, the question remains unanswered, "Do you, Joe Krohn, accept unequivocally the entire Book of Concord?"
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
I don't know what percentage of profs at MLC have doctorates, but I can tell you that MLC is fully accredited just as all other colleges and universities are. Graduates are fully licensed and qualified to teach in public and private schools.
I understand that MLC is NOT accredited by any secular higher educational group.
This may have changed, but it was not accredited back when I was in prep school (a number of decades ago).
Anon 4:52, you can find MLC faculty qualifications listed at the back of the catalog, this is the link for the undergrad one:
http://www.mlc-wels.edu/home/academics/undergrad/catalog200910/
I don't think there are new faculty that teach the master's program, but I could be wrong.
Many MLC professors do not have their doctorates, but many are also in the process of attaining them. The education profs are the main ones working towards them, the pastoral profs, who graduate from WELS' WLS, most do not have doctorates. From what I can gather, the profs are getting degrees in education, with an emphasis in the field (e.g., special education, music, phys ed).
The accrediting body of MLC accredits other institutions including the University of Minnesota. MLC grads can teach in public schools as long they meet the qualifications. The accreditation helps to ensure that MLC grads meet the qualifications that most other grads have as well. It also helps the process of receive teaching licenses in other states go much easier as certain general qualifications have been met. Of course, each state may have slightly different qualifications which may require MLC grads to take a few extra courses/training/supervision to be able to teach in that state.
Brett, your false doctrine is repudiated on the Real Ichabod site. Read it and weep.
>>>I understand that MLC is NOT accredited by any secular higher educational group. This may have changed, but it was not accredited back when I was in prep school (a number of decades ago).<<<
This is completely false. MLC is fully accredited. Get with the times and do your research before you spread lies in public.
Of course I do, Brett. Just not your subscription to it.
JK
It should be noted that the MLC profs in the process of attaining their doctorates are doing so more because of accreditation suggestions and/or requirements..... also, just because a school is accredited does not mean the education in and of itself is good. It just means that certain requirements/standards are met, and many schools with varying degrees of quality are accredited simply because they teach a course called "assessment in children's literature" or "psychology of learning." Who is teaching that course and whether or not that person is truly qualified is a different story.
>>>I understand that MLC is NOT accredited by any secular higher educational group. This may have changed, but it was not accredited back when I was in prep school (a number of decades ago).<<<
This is completely false. MLC is fully accredited. Get with the times and do your research before you spread lies in public.
Thanks for the correction/additional information regarding MLC's accredited status.
Gee, you got a bit snippy though, didn't you? Yes, I suppose I should have done some Web crawling before posting that, although I did make reference that it was NOT accredited back when I was considering that institution (back when it was DMLC, not MLC).
Touchy people on this blog site. No wonder Synod conventions have a hard time with evaluating and discussing various proposals.
Greetings! I've been following this blog since its inception, most of the time in general amusement, and often in perplexity. However, I have decided to weigh in on a comment I read recently - actually, a couple.
The individual surmised that perhaps the WELS is heading toward a "civil war." Others then made reference to the incorrectly-named conflict among the states of the United States. As the Confederacy was in no way interested in taking over the U.S. Federal government - that conflagration was not a "civil war" per se, i.e. Wars of the Roses.
However, what we're looking at in the WELS is a "real" civil war, or more correctly - we have already been at war for at least the last 20 years, with a good many small battles before that.
The WELS is hopelessly (and I say that admitting that God can do anything) divided into 3 camps. One camp consists of the C&C folks and their hangers-on. Then there's another camp made up of the "Issues in WELS" men and various allies. But by far the largest camp is right in the middle, most of whom want little or nothing to do with the war at all. The battle is for the hearts and minds of this third group. The camp that convinces them that their way is best will win - pure and simple.
I should add that there is a very small group who basically feel - "a pox on all your houses!"
This then leads to my last observation concerning the comment about whether or not doctrinal issues will be dealt with at the convention. Most WELS Pastors, and a lot of laymen, know that the "real" actual work of the convention is done in the floor committees. In turn, the Presidium has pretty much carte blanche in deciding who chairs these groups and also their make-up. Thus, if the SP has done his work well - and I believe he has - the issues will be dealt with in those meetings, and the memorials which come out of those committees will tell the tale. Also, the recent Ad Hoc Committee obviously dealt with doctrine and practice and called it like it is. I believe the same will be true in the floor committees.
Regarding elections: The C&Cers are on the run and hoping to get a man they can depend on into the 1st VP slot.
As to finances, it really won't matter too much what is decided since our nation's leaders will continue horrible policies and the economy will not recover any time soon - with the result that more cuts will be needed anyway, regardless of how the convention goes.
So, in short, a nasty little quiet war has been raging in WELS behind the scenes for decades. While LCMS and ELCA often do their fighting out in the open, that is seldom, if ever, the case in WELS. I don't see any reason for this pattern to change. I seriously doubt any group will arise at Saginaw and "walk out" of the synod, and I don't think any group will be "throw out" either. Thus, it may look to many as though very little was done. But I believe our SP will most likely get 75 to 80% of what he needs done, and we will be on our way to fixing many problems that have accumulated over the past 20 years. From my keyboard to God's ear!
Deo Vindice!
Fr. Spence
Brett Meyer wrote:
"To Joe Krohn, the question remains unanswered, "Do you, Joe Krohn, accept unequivocally the entire Book of Concord?"
Gee Brett, you are a fool if you accept (unequivocally) anything except the inspired Word of God. Claiming, as you do that the BOC is a Perfect transcription of the Holy Scriptures is blasphemy. You, Brett are exactly like the people who condemn. You are a legalistic pig of a man; one who's made Luther his Buddha to genuflect in front of.
See Brett, I'm a Confessional Lutheran and I believe the BOC is a very good book and believe it espouses true doctrine. But I also believe that God only inspired humans to write 66 books--The Bible.
Any book may be questioned except the Bible. All books but the Bible were written solely by people. You promote idolatry and are as guilty of false teaching as Leonard Sweet.
You should be careful: Don't be too quick to teach-- That comes from the book of James I think.
Tick...Tick...Tick... BOOOOOOOOM!!
There goes Brett, a rocket of anger blasting off the surface of the earth, with 17 pages of irrate finger waggling and conspiracy. (Oh, Brett--I'm jewish by blood) Our dear little fellow Brett is SUCH a theologian; SUCH a good teacher I think he ought to join the club and get a blog for himself. Maybe he's got "Blog-envy".
Does anyone consider the time Brett puts into writing on these blogs? He must be independently wealthy to afford the time he spends instructing us all. Throw us a bone Brett!
Actually Brett, I think it'd be good for you to get a hobby. Your butt must be quite pimply from all the time you spend at the computer. I suggest gardening. Learning to grow plants is a humbling experience--something you need.
Maybe it's just a coindicence but BM has been rather quiet, thank you Jesus, since the other Ichabod blog site started.
Anonymous, I am attempting to place the best construction on your caustic tirade. I'm having trouble though with your statement, "You are a legalistic pig of a man." I'm gonna keep working on a better construction of that hurtful remark - perhaps it's only hurtful at first glance.
I believe you are the one who is acting the "rocket of anger". Throughout my discussions on Bailing Water, Ichabod, Extra Nos and elsewhere I have been patient and temperate.
Please provide a quote and reference for where you say I made this statement, "Claiming, as you do that the BOC is a Perfect transcription of the Holy Scriptures..." And you then call that statement blasphemy. I've consistently stated that the BOC is 100% correct in it's explanation of Christian doctrine, the Holy Scriptures.
If you disagree please show where it is incorrect. As far as I know the WELS still requires the acceptance of the entire Book of Concord (The Lutheran Confessions) from those going through their rite of Ordination.
You've posted a good example of the vitriol many in the WELS have for the Lutheran Confessions. For that I thank you and possibly others condemn you.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
"Do you, Joe Krohn, accept unequivocally the entire Book of Concord?"
There ya go Brett
That's the quote you were looking for. Nothing should be believed unequivocally except the Bible.
"Nothing should be believed unequivocally except the Bible."
I think this adequately represents the view many in WELS have towards the Lutheran Confessions.
WELS would find much benefit in spending time explaining what the Book of Concord is, what it says and what it means today for the common Lutheran. I know I'd be very receptive to some in depth study of our Confessions.
Rob
Bethany completed a review of the entire Book of Concord, followed by a thorough review of Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant. We are now reviewing The History of Pietism. Doctrinal studies are very enjoyable for the pastor and very much appreciated by the members.
I thought perhaps some clarification on justification would be nice for the discussion and since Brett Meyer speaks about the issue.
Forensic justification speaks to the following: because of Christ's sacrifice, God changed our status from condemned to acquitted (Ro 4:5). And this justification is due to God's grace.
Objective justification speaks of justification as complete, whether anyone believes it or not. It is unconditional. Faith receives the benefit of justification; it does not complete justification. (Ro 3:3)
Universal justification is Jesus having paid for the sins of the entire world. Jesus died to pay for the sins of all. (1 Jn 2:2)
Subjective justification means that through faith, we receive the benefit of what Jesus did for us. Through unbelief, we lose the benefit of all Jesus did for us. (Mk 16:16)
Hope this helps.
Mr. Lund, you fail to explain your doctrine of Objective Justification fully - as taught by the WELS. The doctrine teaches that God declared the whole world forgiven, righteous and justified prior to and before faith. H.A. Preus, Mark Zarling, AZ/CA DP Jon Buchholz and Seigbert W. Becker all state that God must have declared the entire unbelieving world free of all sin, justified and righteous in Christ before faith otherwise what would faith have to hold onto. UOJ faith doesn't hold onto the promise of forgiveness of sins as Scripture states but UOJ faith is built from and holds onto the previous declaration that we've already been declared forgiven, were already justified, sinless and guiltless in God's eyes. Becker goes so far as to state that even when people don't believe in Christ they are believing children of God. For example:
S.W. Becker, "and many that think they are not believers are believing children of God."
Christ, Hebrews 11:6, "But
without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh
to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them
that diligently seek him."
and John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
S.W. Becker, "In times of temptation when I am no longer aware of my faith, when my heart tells me that I am an unbeliever, I have no place to turn for assurance if faith must come before forgiveness"
Christ, Romans 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
Luther states in his commentary on Galations, "By faith Christ
changes places with us. He gets our sins, we get His holiness."
"By faith alone can we become righteous, for faith invests us
with the sinlessness of Christ."
and, "The Scriptures ascribe no righteousness to Abraham except through faith. The Scriptures speak of Abraham as he stands before God, a man justified by faith. Because of his faith God extends to him the promise: "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Abraham was justified because he believed. Paul's argumentation runs like this: "Since this is the unmistakable testimony of Holy Writ, why do you take your stand upon circumcision and the Law? Was not Abraham, your father, of whom you make so much, justified and saved without circumcision and the Law by faith alone?" Paul therefore
concludes: "They which are of faith, the same are the children ofAbraham."
Luther, "The Scriptures ascribe no righteousness to Abraham
except through faith."
http://www.bibleteacher.org/luthercom_3.htm
The doctrine of Universal Objective Justification is a false doctrine placing a person's faith in a declaration that was not made by God outside of and before faith in the promise of forgiveness of sins.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
The Lund's Lives as Lutherans - that is a recapitulation of the Synodical Conference position, which is contrary to the Scriptures, the Confessions, Luther, Chemnitz, and everyone else until the Age of Pietism. The double justification scheme you described is found in the theological textbook of a Pietist who was widely read in German and English, Europe and America, before Walther came to America.
There is only one justification in the Bible - justification by faith.
In Christ,
Greg Jackson
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