Chart created by: Tim Niedfeldtto view this chart more clearly visit Tim's blog at: (click on the chart)
http://ventosusveritas.blogspot.com/
Friday, August 29, 2008
CG vs Contemporary WELS Worship - by Tim
Chart created by: Tim Niedfeldtto view this chart more clearly visit Tim's blog at: (click on the chart)
http://ventosusveritas.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, August 27, 2008
The discussion continues
Anonymous said...
Please assure me we're not finished here. I count it a privilege to read the words of Fr. Pietrus Mons. I do miss the Motley Magpie.
August 27, 2008 5:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Wow! What?!? To Peter, at least, the OT priesthood and the NT priesthood of believers were different. He explains how the priesthood, which was limited to a few in the OT, now includes all of God's people in the NT. The OT priesthood was only a shadow, the NT priesthood of all believers is fulfillment.
August 26, 2008 10:17 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:17,
Pull out your Tappert again. All are priests, as Luther asserts, but not all are minister, again as Luther asserts. Sorry, I don't have a Tappert so I can't give you a reference. You can trust Tappert about as far as you can throw it, and I threw mine quite far one day. Maybe that's why I can't find it.The pastor stands in the stead of Christ (Gee, that was in the old wels hymnal's absolution, not anymore!). He mediates. It goes through him. The Aboslution, the preached Word, the Eucharist goes through him. Yes, people can say their prayers directly to God. But they also bring their prayers to church for the pastor to say. Mediation again.
To follow your line of reasoning, why every wels person could celebrate Holy Communion in his own house, without thought of ordination (an adiaphoron). The only thing stopping this according to the wels is good order. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14:40, the sedes doctrinae of tidiness.
Why do I torture myself like this!?! Cuz I like shooting fish in a barrel. Fr. Pietrus Mons
Please assure me we're not finished here. I count it a privilege to read the words of Fr. Pietrus Mons. I do miss the Motley Magpie.
August 27, 2008 5:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Wow! What?!? To Peter, at least, the OT priesthood and the NT priesthood of believers were different. He explains how the priesthood, which was limited to a few in the OT, now includes all of God's people in the NT. The OT priesthood was only a shadow, the NT priesthood of all believers is fulfillment.
August 26, 2008 10:17 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:17,
Pull out your Tappert again. All are priests, as Luther asserts, but not all are minister, again as Luther asserts. Sorry, I don't have a Tappert so I can't give you a reference. You can trust Tappert about as far as you can throw it, and I threw mine quite far one day. Maybe that's why I can't find it.The pastor stands in the stead of Christ (Gee, that was in the old wels hymnal's absolution, not anymore!). He mediates. It goes through him. The Aboslution, the preached Word, the Eucharist goes through him. Yes, people can say their prayers directly to God. But they also bring their prayers to church for the pastor to say. Mediation again.
To follow your line of reasoning, why every wels person could celebrate Holy Communion in his own house, without thought of ordination (an adiaphoron). The only thing stopping this according to the wels is good order. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14:40, the sedes doctrinae of tidiness.
Why do I torture myself like this!?! Cuz I like shooting fish in a barrel. Fr. Pietrus Mons
Confessional Crusaders - let the pilgrimage begin
It seems that the blogging gauntlet has been thrown down: http://ventosusveritas.blogspot.com/
Tim – the nutty folk on Bailing Water certainly never back down from a fight, this is especially true when the soldiers of the cross are clinging to the truths of Scripture. As stated in the Formula of Concord, “we believe, teach, and confess that in a time of persecution, when an unequivocal confession of the faith is demanded of us, we dare not yield to the opponents in indifferent matters.”
The Reformation began because a nutty monk was not indifferent but upset about the practices of the church. Bad practice led to false doctrine so the practice was changed. Bad practices in our churches are leading to false doctrine in the pulpits and beyond.
About the false doctrine from the pulpit you say, in reference to the plagiarized Baptists sermons: I'm sure they would have been rather confounded if the same sermon was delivered at a traditional congregation. What now...
This illustrates the point completely. This sermon did not happen at a confessional church with strong Lutheran practices. It happened at a WELS church that has adopted the practices of the Baptists and Methodists.
You also say, “The Liturgy has trancended from being a Christ-centered worship guide to becoming the only acceptable form of worship”
The liturgy is a practice that teaches and points to Christ. There is nothing in scripture that says you have to dress nicely when you go to church, be reverent at church, observe Sunday as the day of worship, or fold your hands and bow your head when you pray. These are practices that I must teach my children. These things become a habit. Habits are hard to break. The liturgy should remain unbroken. The best way to change a doctrine is to break the tradition or practice.
Don’t we love our Lutheran doctrine and practice? I guess it is time to raise the Confessional flag to all the nutty Confessional Crusaders.
Tim – the nutty folk on Bailing Water certainly never back down from a fight, this is especially true when the soldiers of the cross are clinging to the truths of Scripture. As stated in the Formula of Concord, “we believe, teach, and confess that in a time of persecution, when an unequivocal confession of the faith is demanded of us, we dare not yield to the opponents in indifferent matters.”
The Reformation began because a nutty monk was not indifferent but upset about the practices of the church. Bad practice led to false doctrine so the practice was changed. Bad practices in our churches are leading to false doctrine in the pulpits and beyond.
About the false doctrine from the pulpit you say, in reference to the plagiarized Baptists sermons: I'm sure they would have been rather confounded if the same sermon was delivered at a traditional congregation. What now...
This illustrates the point completely. This sermon did not happen at a confessional church with strong Lutheran practices. It happened at a WELS church that has adopted the practices of the Baptists and Methodists.
You also say, “The Liturgy has trancended from being a Christ-centered worship guide to becoming the only acceptable form of worship”
The liturgy is a practice that teaches and points to Christ. There is nothing in scripture that says you have to dress nicely when you go to church, be reverent at church, observe Sunday as the day of worship, or fold your hands and bow your head when you pray. These are practices that I must teach my children. These things become a habit. Habits are hard to break. The liturgy should remain unbroken. The best way to change a doctrine is to break the tradition or practice.
Don’t we love our Lutheran doctrine and practice? I guess it is time to raise the Confessional flag to all the nutty Confessional Crusaders.
Sunday, August 24, 2008
St. Mark's - Identity Confusion (Indentity?)
Not long ago I pointed out to the pastors at St. Mark's that their published sermons had a reformed flavor. Or as some might say they were plagiarized. The St. Mark's pastors then began to use footnotes to cite their reformed sources.
Recently St. Mark's has pulled written sermons from their web site.
no more printed sermons
But you can view the video of this cutting edge church:
http://stmarkpartners.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=121
and the indentity audio:
http://stmarkpartnersindentitycrisis
Recently St. Mark's has pulled written sermons from their web site.
no more printed sermons
But you can view the video of this cutting edge church:
http://stmarkpartners.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=121
and the indentity audio:
http://stmarkpartnersindentitycrisis
Saturday, August 23, 2008
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar
An interesting conference coming up that some of you might be aware of or unaware of or maybe being WELS just wary of:
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar --
------------------------------------------------------------
http://liturgyseminar.blogspot.com/
http://gottesblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/plan-ahead-oktoberfest-is-coming.html
http://rev aaron moldenhauer receives sabre of boldness
Schedule of Events
Sunday, October 12
5 pm Autumn Choral vespers, anticipating the Festival of Harvest
6 pm Annual bratwurst banquet
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt: Annual Presentation of Awards, sort of . . .
Monday, October 13 (Oktoberfest Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass: FESTIVAL OF HARVEST
Fr. Eckardt, celebrant and preacher
Mr. Steve Harris, subdeacon
11:00-11:50 a.m. “An Overview of the History of the WELS - Fr. Aaron Moldenhauer
12:00 noon Office of Sext
12:15 p.m. Lunch
1:00 -1:50 p.m. The Office of the Holy Ministry in the WELS - Fr. John Berg
2:00 – 2:50 p.m. The Roles of Men and Women- Mrs. Tabitha Moldenhauer
3:00 – 3:50 p.m. The Doctrine of Fellowship in the WELS- Fr. Peter Berg
Tuesday, October 9 (Liturgical Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass
11:00 a.m.-3:15 p.m. Seminar
Private Confession available Monday morningAnyone desiring the Sacrament of Absolution may come to the church on Monday morning between 8:00 and 9:00. The confessional is the vestry, located just inside the door which enters the church from the hallway to the west. A sign will be posted on the door, indicating that if the door is ajar, the penitent may enter. If it is closed, please (sic) (knock??? listen in?? take notes?? run???make the sign of the cross?? )
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar --
------------------------------------------------------------
St. Paul’s Evangelical-Lutheran Church
Kewanee, Illinois
October 12-14, 2008
Kewanee, Illinois
October 12-14, 2008
http://liturgyseminar.blogspot.com/
http://gottesblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/plan-ahead-oktoberfest-is-coming.html
http://rev aaron moldenhauer receives sabre of boldness
Schedule of Events
Sunday, October 12
5 pm Autumn Choral vespers, anticipating the Festival of Harvest
6 pm Annual bratwurst banquet
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt: Annual Presentation of Awards, sort of . . .
Monday, October 13 (Oktoberfest Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass: FESTIVAL OF HARVEST
Fr. Eckardt, celebrant and preacher
Mr. Steve Harris, subdeacon
11:00-11:50 a.m. “An Overview of the History of the WELS - Fr. Aaron Moldenhauer
12:00 noon Office of Sext
12:15 p.m. Lunch
1:00 -1:50 p.m. The Office of the Holy Ministry in the WELS - Fr. John Berg
2:00 – 2:50 p.m. The Roles of Men and Women- Mrs. Tabitha Moldenhauer
3:00 – 3:50 p.m. The Doctrine of Fellowship in the WELS- Fr. Peter Berg
Tuesday, October 9 (Liturgical Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass
11:00 a.m.-3:15 p.m. Seminar
Private Confession available Monday morningAnyone desiring the Sacrament of Absolution may come to the church on Monday morning between 8:00 and 9:00. The confessional is the vestry, located just inside the door which enters the church from the hallway to the west. A sign will be posted on the door, indicating that if the door is ajar, the penitent may enter. If it is closed, please (sic) (knock??? listen in?? take notes?? run???make the sign of the cross?? )
Sunday, August 17, 2008
The difficulty in rooting out CG
In response to a question on why the WELS leadership doesn't discpline the CG gurus in the WELS....
-----------------------
Anonymous said...
The problem with the CG movement is how subtle and insidious it is. It can be easily "covered up" by pastors and churches who hide their false motivation and lack of faith in the Means by saying the right words. Because of this, it can be very difficult for leaders to identify and discipline CG supporters. A CG pastor might indicate by his worship styles and practices that he doesn't trust the Means of Grace, but when a DP talks to him and he says, "Don't worry, I trust the Means, I'm just trying something new", what exactly can be done? There isn't really any hard evidence of false doctrine.
You asked specifically about teaching decision theology and sacraments as ordinances. Would CG pastors in the WELS ever admit (to themselves even) that they believed or taught these things? No way. But do they teach them by the way they worship? Absolutely. (But of course, CG teaches that worship style has nothing to do with doctrine, and thus they can't understand how their worship actually is teaching these things.)
With that said, though, I certainly wish our leaders had the courage of Luther to say of the CG pastors, "They have a different spirit," and to remove them from fellowship.
-----------------------
Anonymous said...
The problem with the CG movement is how subtle and insidious it is. It can be easily "covered up" by pastors and churches who hide their false motivation and lack of faith in the Means by saying the right words. Because of this, it can be very difficult for leaders to identify and discipline CG supporters. A CG pastor might indicate by his worship styles and practices that he doesn't trust the Means of Grace, but when a DP talks to him and he says, "Don't worry, I trust the Means, I'm just trying something new", what exactly can be done? There isn't really any hard evidence of false doctrine.
You asked specifically about teaching decision theology and sacraments as ordinances. Would CG pastors in the WELS ever admit (to themselves even) that they believed or taught these things? No way. But do they teach them by the way they worship? Absolutely. (But of course, CG teaches that worship style has nothing to do with doctrine, and thus they can't understand how their worship actually is teaching these things.)
With that said, though, I certainly wish our leaders had the courage of Luther to say of the CG pastors, "They have a different spirit," and to remove them from fellowship.
St. Mark's writes our worship history
The pastors at St. Mark's in Green Bay have the diffinitive word on worship. Contemporary worship is the truly historical form of worship. But yet they once again don't cite their sources. Yet the recent worship conference claims our root are liturgical. Which way is it?
http://stmarkpartners.org/downloads/Worship.pdf
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VC59bnr7QcQJ:www.churchfromscratch.net/downloads/KelmWorship.doc+church+from+scratch+kelm&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Why is it that the contemporary church's are so cross :(
http://www.crosswalkphoenix.com/
http://crossroadschicago.org/index.html
and this site now leads to a new missional church:
http://www.churchfromscratch.net/
http://stmarkpartners.org/downloads/Worship.pdf
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VC59bnr7QcQJ:www.churchfromscratch.net/downloads/KelmWorship.doc+church+from+scratch+kelm&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Why is it that the contemporary church's are so cross :(
http://www.crosswalkphoenix.com/
http://crossroadschicago.org/index.html
and this site now leads to a new missional church:
http://www.churchfromscratch.net/
Saturday, August 9, 2008
liturgical vs. non-liturgical (WELS worship wars)
Anonymous said...
"Christ-centered worship that highlights Word and Sacraments and rightly presents Law and Gospel in a liturgical or non-liturgical worship format is truly Lutheran; both are fine with me."This sounds great in theory, but it just doesn't work this way in real life. The liturgy was specifically designed to do exactly what you said--be Christ-centered, highlighting Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel. The church has found this to be true over the course of 2 millennia.Non-liturgical (contemporary) worship was designed by those who wanted worship to be man-centered, who didn't value Word and Sacrament or Law and Gospel, and who were arrogant enough to throw away 2 millennia of church history in favor of its own trends.Thus, if you want to be Lutheran, if you want to be Christ-centered, valuing Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel, you must follow the liturgy. Not because this is a Scriptural law, but because there is no other option out there which does the same thing.
August 9, 2008 11:04 AM
"Christ-centered worship that highlights Word and Sacraments and rightly presents Law and Gospel in a liturgical or non-liturgical worship format is truly Lutheran; both are fine with me."This sounds great in theory, but it just doesn't work this way in real life. The liturgy was specifically designed to do exactly what you said--be Christ-centered, highlighting Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel. The church has found this to be true over the course of 2 millennia.Non-liturgical (contemporary) worship was designed by those who wanted worship to be man-centered, who didn't value Word and Sacrament or Law and Gospel, and who were arrogant enough to throw away 2 millennia of church history in favor of its own trends.Thus, if you want to be Lutheran, if you want to be Christ-centered, valuing Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel, you must follow the liturgy. Not because this is a Scriptural law, but because there is no other option out there which does the same thing.
August 9, 2008 11:04 AM
Wednesday, August 6, 2008
Worship Conference
Here is a reaction to the WELS worship conference by Pres. Schroeder:
http://together.wels.net/
...Then it was on to the worship conference, where more than a thousand WELS worship leaders and musicians had gathered—more than any previous conference. This was the first worship conference I had attended, and I was not disappointed. I came away marveling at the many gifts and talents that God has given to people in our synod. Those gifts were on display in the inspiring worship services and in the many workshops that were held. Some of us are not very emotional people by nature, but there were times when the beauty of the gospel-centered music and messages left very few dry eyes. Particularly moving was the hymn festival featuring a select choir of WELS high school students from across the country.
This conference was significant because it stressed the importance and centrality of worship in our lives as God's people. And as the case was made for the importance of worship, the point was made again and again that confessional Lutheran worship can and should be done with a commitment to excellence and with an appreciation for the heritage of liturgical worship that has been passed down to us by Christians throughout the ages. What was most striking was the reminder that truly Lutheran worship is not centered on us, but on Christ and the proclamation of the timeless gospel.
--------------------------------------------------
Maybe there is progress to a return to confessional worship. Or maybe this provides a balance to last summer's change conference on the use of Rock and Roll in worship. ??
Did anyone attend this conference?
http://together.wels.net/
...Then it was on to the worship conference, where more than a thousand WELS worship leaders and musicians had gathered—more than any previous conference. This was the first worship conference I had attended, and I was not disappointed. I came away marveling at the many gifts and talents that God has given to people in our synod. Those gifts were on display in the inspiring worship services and in the many workshops that were held. Some of us are not very emotional people by nature, but there were times when the beauty of the gospel-centered music and messages left very few dry eyes. Particularly moving was the hymn festival featuring a select choir of WELS high school students from across the country.
This conference was significant because it stressed the importance and centrality of worship in our lives as God's people. And as the case was made for the importance of worship, the point was made again and again that confessional Lutheran worship can and should be done with a commitment to excellence and with an appreciation for the heritage of liturgical worship that has been passed down to us by Christians throughout the ages. What was most striking was the reminder that truly Lutheran worship is not centered on us, but on Christ and the proclamation of the timeless gospel.
--------------------------------------------------
Maybe there is progress to a return to confessional worship. Or maybe this provides a balance to last summer's change conference on the use of Rock and Roll in worship. ??
Did anyone attend this conference?
Tuesday, August 5, 2008
Comments
Norman Teigen said...
I think that one of the major differences between WELS and LC-MS was over Boy Scouts.I think that the whole question of Synodical Conference re-establishment is worth opening.I sense that there is more consensus than difference among the former members of the SC.I personally think that my synod, the ELS, made a very big mistake in suspending relations with Missouri back in 1955.It is time for a new generation to see through the misinterpretations and misrepresentations that caused the SC to go out of business.Norman TeigenELS layman(Disclaimer: I am a member of the ELS but I do not presume to speak for the ELS.)
August 4, 2008 6:24 PM
Anonymous said...
Rev. M. T.To support what I said about the Wisconsn Synod insisting that "amt" is function and not office (as the Confessions indeed do use it), this from the WELS Q and A:(Quote) Lutheran writers during and after the Reformation era sometimes used phrases like "the office of the ministry" as a synonym for the preaching of the word of God and especially the preaching of the gospel and absolving sinners of their guilt on account of Christ's work. Please remember that often (as in Article V of the Augsburg Confession with the term Predigtamt), the term "office" means "function, task, or work" rather than "position." They were speaking of the glorious task or function given to the church to preach and apply the gospel of forgiveness on account of Christ. They were not referring to a specific public ministry position like that of a missionary, teacher, or parish pastor. (end quote).So we are to believe Melanchthon's intent was the tautological "the preaching of the Gospel was established for the preaching of the Gospel."J.T.
August 5, 2008 9:25 AM
Anonymous said...
Norm Teigen:Are you sure you're an ELS member? Every time you write on this blog, you sound more and more like an LC-MSer!
August 5, 2008 9:35 AM
Anonymous said...
Anon. writes,"Are you sure you're an ELS member? Every time you write on this blog, you sound more and more like an LC-MSer!"Apparently you haven't spoken wit/heard from too many ELSers, especially on the issue of Church and Ministry. Am I wrong, Rev. M.T., that most within the ELS believe Christ established an office to be filled by men to perform the functions rather than a mere institution of functions?J.T.
August 5, 2008 5:25 PM
Rev. Matthew Thompson said...
J.T.I believe you may have confused me with the other Lutheran, Rev. Matthew Thompson, of the ELS. I'm a pastor in the LCMS and am not very familiar with the ELS.
August 5, 2008 7:15 PM
Anonymous said...
Rev. M.T."I believe you may have confused me with the other Lutheran, Rev. Matthew Thompson, of the ELS."You are correct sir!J.T. (aka Ed)PS Any ELS guys out there to answer my question?
I think that one of the major differences between WELS and LC-MS was over Boy Scouts.I think that the whole question of Synodical Conference re-establishment is worth opening.I sense that there is more consensus than difference among the former members of the SC.I personally think that my synod, the ELS, made a very big mistake in suspending relations with Missouri back in 1955.It is time for a new generation to see through the misinterpretations and misrepresentations that caused the SC to go out of business.Norman TeigenELS layman(Disclaimer: I am a member of the ELS but I do not presume to speak for the ELS.)
August 4, 2008 6:24 PM
Anonymous said...
Rev. M. T.To support what I said about the Wisconsn Synod insisting that "amt" is function and not office (as the Confessions indeed do use it), this from the WELS Q and A:(Quote) Lutheran writers during and after the Reformation era sometimes used phrases like "the office of the ministry" as a synonym for the preaching of the word of God and especially the preaching of the gospel and absolving sinners of their guilt on account of Christ's work. Please remember that often (as in Article V of the Augsburg Confession with the term Predigtamt), the term "office" means "function, task, or work" rather than "position." They were speaking of the glorious task or function given to the church to preach and apply the gospel of forgiveness on account of Christ. They were not referring to a specific public ministry position like that of a missionary, teacher, or parish pastor. (end quote).So we are to believe Melanchthon's intent was the tautological "the preaching of the Gospel was established for the preaching of the Gospel."J.T.
August 5, 2008 9:25 AM
Anonymous said...
Norm Teigen:Are you sure you're an ELS member? Every time you write on this blog, you sound more and more like an LC-MSer!
August 5, 2008 9:35 AM
Anonymous said...
Anon. writes,"Are you sure you're an ELS member? Every time you write on this blog, you sound more and more like an LC-MSer!"Apparently you haven't spoken wit/heard from too many ELSers, especially on the issue of Church and Ministry. Am I wrong, Rev. M.T., that most within the ELS believe Christ established an office to be filled by men to perform the functions rather than a mere institution of functions?J.T.
August 5, 2008 5:25 PM
Rev. Matthew Thompson said...
J.T.I believe you may have confused me with the other Lutheran, Rev. Matthew Thompson, of the ELS. I'm a pastor in the LCMS and am not very familiar with the ELS.
August 5, 2008 7:15 PM
Anonymous said...
Rev. M.T."I believe you may have confused me with the other Lutheran, Rev. Matthew Thompson, of the ELS."You are correct sir!J.T. (aka Ed)PS Any ELS guys out there to answer my question?
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