Wednesday, July 30, 2008
Church visit
I have been sitting back reading the comments about everyone's a minister. I just thought I would share another recent visit to a WELS worship service. This service actually used hymns from CW and followed parts of the liturgy. What is interesting is that the only part the pastor partook in was the sermon and communion. Meanwhile, the staff (or is it staph) minister led the service and lay men did the Bible readings. Maybe the sermon is all the young minister can handle since he was parading around the altar and up and down the aisles during the 35 minute sermon. This is a church of about 400-500 members. I just found it odd that the called pastor did not lead the service.
Thursday, July 17, 2008
The Waffle House - I don't mean Brett Favre
Not long ago a WELS DP told me that it would be a sin for my wife to vote for a different candidate than me in a political election.
Yet now the anonymous WELS Q & A fella says it would be ok to vote for a female candidate. Can you have it both ways in the WELS???
Does the Biblical headship principal apply in society or not?
http://www.wels.net/
Yet now the anonymous WELS Q & A fella says it would be ok to vote for a female candidate. Can you have it both ways in the WELS???
Does the Biblical headship principal apply in society or not?
http://www.wels.net/
Alternative Missions - guest comment-
-------------another view---------------------------------------------
I have done a lot of reading the last few weeks as I stumbled across this site and then branched out to read the many others with related themes. I've read most all of Wacky Jackson and his tripe. I've read the issuesinwels folks site, the motley magpie, combed through all the comments on these blogs. I've had many things cross my mind that I'd love to say about various issues and even started some comments of my own ...only to stop and decide there would be no point arguing here...much like the protester in Tienamen Square.
Ultimately though I think if those who sit around here postulating would actually go out and knock on people's doors and witness Christ to their neighbors and actually go out into the world and find unbelievers they can share the Gospel with that most of this discussion would disappear. I would like to see some of the people here reaching out to my non-temple going jewish lesbian neighbors with the Augsburg confession or maybe the book of Concord. Perhaps a thorough discourse of the history of the synodical conference and the changes to synods and worship practices in a post-modern age would get them to consider coming to a bible study group at our house?
The point being in almost all of the discussion I have seen at all these sites they only address keeping Lutheran churches Lutheran as if that was our only goal. They criticize churches and/or individuals that actually get out and try to reach the unbelievers. I mean alleluia, praise the Lord you have a church with pure doctrine in Word and Sacrament and fine traditional methods of pointing churchgoers to Christ. But hardly even once in any site has anyone addressed personal evangelism. I also believe that the Holy spirit does all the work on an unbelieving heart when the Word is presented but it seems that in this venue that is often used as an excuse to not be personally responsible for getting out there and presenting the Word on a personal level. Perhaps the great commission does not apply to some. Perhaps some think that since the Holy Spirit does it all that the Holy Spirit will knock on the doors and present the Word himself. Imagine a church that had a "program" that taught people how to be better evangelists. Clearly since it is a program it is "church growth" and learning to evangelize with those around you should be avoided.
I guess I belong to a new mission "Church Growth" church. We have blended services with A/V and a band. Half of our budget is spent on evangelism. We have events nearly every month that get our members into the community or invites the community in so that we can build personal relationships and share the Gospel.
I think it is ironic that in these blogs and such it would appear that the WELS is just repleat with all this liberalism in CG and all you need to do is talk to someone who is involved in it whole heartedly and I can tell you. The WELS is 99% full of nothing but crusty old traditionalist boogers who sit on their hands, can't handle change, and won't evangelize...like the many here who only believe in the Holy Confessions that were verbally inspired by Martin Luther...the true Lutheran god. We are criticized by most of the traditional WELS congregations all around us (except our mother congregation of course) and seldom find anyone in the synod who is like the people you describe. We look for guidance and assistance and all we can look to is Crossroads, Crosswalk, St.Marcus, Christ the Rock, etc..and try to form a home grown network of support in true personal ministry. Personally I would love to find all this WELS support for "CG" practices because we ain't feelin' it. I would venture to say that WELS leadership has very little experience and will to try and support alternative missions such as ours. Thats why our core WELS group is still relatively small and the growth we have is 60% new believers and unchurched. Most WELS folks stay away as they don't have the guts to reach out and evangelize and try new things to build those relationships with the unbelievers in our community.
I thank you all though for the opportunity to get a glimpse inside an interesting "theological" perspective.
Tim Niedfeldt
Victory of the Lamb Lutheran Church
Web/AV ministry
I have done a lot of reading the last few weeks as I stumbled across this site and then branched out to read the many others with related themes. I've read most all of Wacky Jackson and his tripe. I've read the issuesinwels folks site, the motley magpie, combed through all the comments on these blogs. I've had many things cross my mind that I'd love to say about various issues and even started some comments of my own ...only to stop and decide there would be no point arguing here...much like the protester in Tienamen Square.
Ultimately though I think if those who sit around here postulating would actually go out and knock on people's doors and witness Christ to their neighbors and actually go out into the world and find unbelievers they can share the Gospel with that most of this discussion would disappear. I would like to see some of the people here reaching out to my non-temple going jewish lesbian neighbors with the Augsburg confession or maybe the book of Concord. Perhaps a thorough discourse of the history of the synodical conference and the changes to synods and worship practices in a post-modern age would get them to consider coming to a bible study group at our house?
The point being in almost all of the discussion I have seen at all these sites they only address keeping Lutheran churches Lutheran as if that was our only goal. They criticize churches and/or individuals that actually get out and try to reach the unbelievers. I mean alleluia, praise the Lord you have a church with pure doctrine in Word and Sacrament and fine traditional methods of pointing churchgoers to Christ. But hardly even once in any site has anyone addressed personal evangelism. I also believe that the Holy spirit does all the work on an unbelieving heart when the Word is presented but it seems that in this venue that is often used as an excuse to not be personally responsible for getting out there and presenting the Word on a personal level. Perhaps the great commission does not apply to some. Perhaps some think that since the Holy Spirit does it all that the Holy Spirit will knock on the doors and present the Word himself. Imagine a church that had a "program" that taught people how to be better evangelists. Clearly since it is a program it is "church growth" and learning to evangelize with those around you should be avoided.
I guess I belong to a new mission "Church Growth" church. We have blended services with A/V and a band. Half of our budget is spent on evangelism. We have events nearly every month that get our members into the community or invites the community in so that we can build personal relationships and share the Gospel.
I think it is ironic that in these blogs and such it would appear that the WELS is just repleat with all this liberalism in CG and all you need to do is talk to someone who is involved in it whole heartedly and I can tell you. The WELS is 99% full of nothing but crusty old traditionalist boogers who sit on their hands, can't handle change, and won't evangelize...like the many here who only believe in the Holy Confessions that were verbally inspired by Martin Luther...the true Lutheran god. We are criticized by most of the traditional WELS congregations all around us (except our mother congregation of course) and seldom find anyone in the synod who is like the people you describe. We look for guidance and assistance and all we can look to is Crossroads, Crosswalk, St.Marcus, Christ the Rock, etc..and try to form a home grown network of support in true personal ministry. Personally I would love to find all this WELS support for "CG" practices because we ain't feelin' it. I would venture to say that WELS leadership has very little experience and will to try and support alternative missions such as ours. Thats why our core WELS group is still relatively small and the growth we have is 60% new believers and unchurched. Most WELS folks stay away as they don't have the guts to reach out and evangelize and try new things to build those relationships with the unbelievers in our community.
I thank you all though for the opportunity to get a glimpse inside an interesting "theological" perspective.
Tim Niedfeldt
Victory of the Lamb Lutheran Church
Web/AV ministry
Sunday, July 13, 2008
Communion not as a warm-up or pre-service batting practice
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
More Curiouser,
"Why not every day?"
Because of the hardness of our hearts. Faithful Lutheran pastors offer it "when people ask for it." Some do. The pastor of our church is faithful. He offers it every single day, that is, he regularly lets people know that he will do so when asked and many take him up on it. The regularly scheduled days are Sunday, Monday and Friday.
Ask a dozen WELS members who enter church on any "dry" Sunday if they would desire the Sacrament if it were offered. Then ask the pastor why he doesn't. You'll be amazed at the answers. That is the difference. Some pastors, the faithful ones, will offer it whenever the people gather for a service and when they ask for it. Some pastors, the unfaithful ones, don't offer it when people gather for a service and refuse to offer it when people ask for it (because a hard hearted church council or voters assembly voted against people receiving the true Body and Blood of our Lord.)Baptism was called Baptism, Confession and Absolution was called Penance and or Confession and the Lord's Supper was called "The Sacrament."
The word sacramentum (Latin for mystery) apply describes the Lord's Supper (as of course other mysteries) and was generally used to describe the Supper. Luther regularly did. The ancients and confessors considered each "sacrament" in itself and not generally under a general category which sometimes leads to mishchief.
Curious Jorge
More Curiouser,
"Why not every day?"
Because of the hardness of our hearts. Faithful Lutheran pastors offer it "when people ask for it." Some do. The pastor of our church is faithful. He offers it every single day, that is, he regularly lets people know that he will do so when asked and many take him up on it. The regularly scheduled days are Sunday, Monday and Friday.
Ask a dozen WELS members who enter church on any "dry" Sunday if they would desire the Sacrament if it were offered. Then ask the pastor why he doesn't. You'll be amazed at the answers. That is the difference. Some pastors, the faithful ones, will offer it whenever the people gather for a service and when they ask for it. Some pastors, the unfaithful ones, don't offer it when people gather for a service and refuse to offer it when people ask for it (because a hard hearted church council or voters assembly voted against people receiving the true Body and Blood of our Lord.)Baptism was called Baptism, Confession and Absolution was called Penance and or Confession and the Lord's Supper was called "The Sacrament."
The word sacramentum (Latin for mystery) apply describes the Lord's Supper (as of course other mysteries) and was generally used to describe the Supper. Luther regularly did. The ancients and confessors considered each "sacrament" in itself and not generally under a general category which sometimes leads to mishchief.
Curious Jorge
Saturday, July 12, 2008
VP steps aside to allow Leadership to function
Back from my journey abroad to hear that Wayne Mueller has taken a call to serve as a pastor. A little birdy also told me that many at 2929 did encourage Wayne to step down as the new leadership is going a new direction and Wayne had been a bit resistant. It wasn't long ago that Wayne was voted out and then back in.
Glad to see that another Church growth supporter has stepped down. Maybe the ship is being righted.?
Glad to see that another Church growth supporter has stepped down. Maybe the ship is being righted.?
Sunday, June 29, 2008
A 2 Week break
I believe that it will take continuing vigilance to stem the tide of reformed theology that has seeped into the WELS. If you're a regular reader of this blog (and a few others) you know what I mean.
(Just Shout'in you never did respond to the WELS version of a Methodist worship service I outlined awhile back. Must have left you speechless.)
I'm heading on a trip overseas so BW will be on a hiatus until my return.
I would encourage you to continue your discussion on: www.bailingwater.com
(Just Shout'in you never did respond to the WELS version of a Methodist worship service I outlined awhile back. Must have left you speechless.)
I'm heading on a trip overseas so BW will be on a hiatus until my return.
I would encourage you to continue your discussion on: www.bailingwater.com
Saturday, June 28, 2008
Friday, June 27, 2008
Communion pre-service - then the Worship Gathering
Back from a business trip and I thought I would share a new trend in WELS communion practices. This "outreach" minded church has decided to have communion 2o minutes prior to the worship gathering. Members that want to take communion (offered twice a month) come 20 minutes prior to the service. Communion is offered and then a little fellowship and socializing break. Then the praise band starts to crank it up and the worship gathering (as it is called) begins minus communion and the liturgy.
I asked a member why communion was held prior to the worship "gathering." I was told that if you didn't feel prepared to take communion you wouldn't be embarrassed by having everyone see you not go up. He also noted that this way visitors that can't come up to communion, aren't embarrassed, and don't feel left out.
Hmmm.. the latest WELS communion trend. ?
I asked a member why communion was held prior to the worship "gathering." I was told that if you didn't feel prepared to take communion you wouldn't be embarrassed by having everyone see you not go up. He also noted that this way visitors that can't come up to communion, aren't embarrassed, and don't feel left out.
Hmmm.. the latest WELS communion trend. ?
Thursday, June 19, 2008
Other -- Are These Fellowships Really Being Made?
Bailing Water's appearance on wels.net
Are These Fellowships Really Being Made? The WELS responds:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/
Are These Fellowships Really Being Made? The WELS responds:
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/
Wednesday, June 18, 2008
Comment on CEO ministries
A new comment from an older post: http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2008/03/ceo-ministries.html
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Imagine a ministry without the politics of dancing of trying to impress or please men with intellect or a degree of education.
Independent from tradition yet never forgeting it.
Spreading the Gospel message with zeal, spirtual fervor, boldness, excitment, enthusiasim, all while holding to the true teachings of the Bible.
One average working man who travels puts in 60 + hours a week, in addition to maintaining his wife and family. He Built a team of Pastor's lay-men, women, and teens, to act as mentors for guidance and leadrship yet remains compelled by God's Word to share with everyone he comes in contact with about the passion that Christ has for us.
There is not a self-seeking or self-promoting bone that CEO Ministries was founded on.
Established with love that Jesus has to offer the world. Cautious, and careful about the balance of Law and Gospel in all his presentations, he delivers a message that God prepared in advance for him speak. - God Bless
Tuesday, June 10, 2008
Ministry - is it you?
From a Convention paper on the different forms? of ministry:
http://www.welsne.org/index.php?section=42
http://www.welsne.org/index.php?section=42
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John,
Below is the question I asked on the Q&A regarding this subject. The didn't post it publically (with only vague reasoning), but I though you might find it interesting.
**********
Dear****
We have answered your question on WELS Topical Q&A but decided not to post it to the system for others to view it. This may be on account of the topic being too private and sensitive, or perhaps this questioned has already been asked. Your question and our response follows.
You asked:
Who watches over the District President? I know that the District Presidents are to uphold doctrine and practice in their District--but who is holding them in account? They are, after all--sinful men who will sin (as all humans do). Is there a check and balance system? And if there is a check and balance system--is it objective? I think it would be safe to assume that men who have known each other for years may find it hard to be objective about their friends/brothers. I searched the WELS website and could not find a procedure on what to do when a District President sins against someone and refuses to acknowledge the person he injured. Any insight on this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
This is our reply:
Ultimately, the members of the district which elected the district president "watch over" the district president through their election of the president every two years. In addition, if the district president is accused of wrong-doing, the district constitution says, "The two district vice presidents with the concurrence of the district circuit pastors may suspend the district president from his office. the president shall have 60 days thereafter to appeal the suspension. If there is no appeal within 60 days, the action shall be final, and the president shall be removed from office. If the president appeals, the appeal will be heard by the District Board of Appeals."
One would pray that when it comes to correct doctrine or practice, Christian friends or brothers can overlook personal relationships and do what is necessary to uphold the truth of God's Word.
June 19, 2008 9:37 AM