The beat goes on: From the latest WELS call report:
Kelm, Rev Paul E -- Parish Assistance Of - Milwaukee WI 09/26/2008
How odd it seems to me as word on the street was SP Schroeder was doing a fine job of rooting out the Church and Change crowd from synodical headquarters. Now we find the esteemed Rev. Kelm is called back to assist congregations in using contemporary worship and reformed sermons. Is he called back to start another spiritual growth program?
Why oh why?
Monday, September 29, 2008
Saturday, September 27, 2008
How you worship is how you believe
As we sit in a bit of quietness I thought I would share with you an excellent post on the Latin phrase lex orandi, lex credendi.
http://sword-in-hat.blogspot.com/
It is sometimes beneficial to peak over the fence and see what our neighbors are doing.
http://sword-in-hat.blogspot.com/
It is sometimes beneficial to peak over the fence and see what our neighbors are doing.
Wednesday, September 17, 2008
Parodox of the Lutheran faith
Much has been written on this blog about opposite perspectives on issues ranging from the role of women, fellowship principles, worship practices, sermon writing, and much more. A recent commenter had this to say:
In all our WELS piousness, we always forget a very important factor. WELS is an organization. We are humans. Sinful humans. So was Luther. So are each of our pastors. And in our sinfulness, no matter how biblically-educated we are, we are still limited in our understanding of God's word. We can never begin to know what God meant when he said the many things he did in his gospel. To think we can puts us at his level and into his mind. How blasphemous.
This thought brings me to my current dilemma because in these issues I see a paradox of thinking. In the Bible I see a paradox too. Jesus was both God and man which is the ultimate paradox. The commenter above alluded to the fact that as humans we are finite (limited) and God is infinite (unlimited) (a paradox). So I write as does the WELS and LCMS and others in a finite way about an infinite God. My slogan on this blog has been to be Lutheran is to always point to Christ. The Bible is a holy Book about a holy God read by sinful men (a paradox). Yet this Holy Book is meant to point to Christ. So my perspective as a sinful human being has been to try to have my life and church point to Christ through all things.
Yet, I must confess as Job does:
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. ..my ears heard you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3, 5-6).
Therefore I see that I need to humble myself and repent of my finite understanding of God. My thinking is not clear on many issues in the WELS. Yet in conversations with WELS pastors, teachers, laypeople, and those on this blog it seems that the WELS (and others) cannot admit to the finite and limited view of God's plan. Don't misunderstand me. I don't believe we are free to do all things. I strongly believe that the historical church should not be abandoned. The Gospel of Christ is not a license to sin even though Luther told his followers to "sin boldly." The Gospel proclaims that we should teach everything that has been commanded and to do this boldly. Yet knowing that the meek shall inherit the earth.
So as I live as a sinner and saint I will embrace the paradox I am living through. I am a Lutheran learning the truths of God, yet as a sinful human being my understanding and knowledge is impaired. I believe that life emerges through death (a paradox) and that is the theology of the cross we must preach. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth stand under the rule of God. In reading Luther I see that the sacred and secular spheres overlap but don't conform to the cut and dry distinctions that my finite mind is hoping to see.
In that respect, I find the debates we WELS love to engage in, to be tedious and trivial. Our "always-right," and "only-ones-who-are-right" attitude is often detrimental to the faith of others.
So this blog will remain a paradox of understanding and it will remain Lutheran as it points to Christ.
In all our WELS piousness, we always forget a very important factor. WELS is an organization. We are humans. Sinful humans. So was Luther. So are each of our pastors. And in our sinfulness, no matter how biblically-educated we are, we are still limited in our understanding of God's word. We can never begin to know what God meant when he said the many things he did in his gospel. To think we can puts us at his level and into his mind. How blasphemous.
This thought brings me to my current dilemma because in these issues I see a paradox of thinking. In the Bible I see a paradox too. Jesus was both God and man which is the ultimate paradox. The commenter above alluded to the fact that as humans we are finite (limited) and God is infinite (unlimited) (a paradox). So I write as does the WELS and LCMS and others in a finite way about an infinite God. My slogan on this blog has been to be Lutheran is to always point to Christ. The Bible is a holy Book about a holy God read by sinful men (a paradox). Yet this Holy Book is meant to point to Christ. So my perspective as a sinful human being has been to try to have my life and church point to Christ through all things.
Yet, I must confess as Job does:
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. ..my ears heard you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3, 5-6).
Therefore I see that I need to humble myself and repent of my finite understanding of God. My thinking is not clear on many issues in the WELS. Yet in conversations with WELS pastors, teachers, laypeople, and those on this blog it seems that the WELS (and others) cannot admit to the finite and limited view of God's plan. Don't misunderstand me. I don't believe we are free to do all things. I strongly believe that the historical church should not be abandoned. The Gospel of Christ is not a license to sin even though Luther told his followers to "sin boldly." The Gospel proclaims that we should teach everything that has been commanded and to do this boldly. Yet knowing that the meek shall inherit the earth.
So as I live as a sinner and saint I will embrace the paradox I am living through. I am a Lutheran learning the truths of God, yet as a sinful human being my understanding and knowledge is impaired. I believe that life emerges through death (a paradox) and that is the theology of the cross we must preach. The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth stand under the rule of God. In reading Luther I see that the sacred and secular spheres overlap but don't conform to the cut and dry distinctions that my finite mind is hoping to see.
In that respect, I find the debates we WELS love to engage in, to be tedious and trivial. Our "always-right," and "only-ones-who-are-right" attitude is often detrimental to the faith of others.
So this blog will remain a paradox of understanding and it will remain Lutheran as it points to Christ.
Thursday, September 4, 2008
WELS view - it is or isn't a sin to vote for Sarah Palin
What does the WELS believe about the role of women in society?
With the nomination of Sarah Palin as vice-president candidate for the Republican party, the WELS position on the role of women in society should be discussed by WELS pastors and laypeople. Are there any qualified male candidates for this postion? (to possibly be the executive officer of the free world ..over men and women)
The WELS teaching states:
A Christian woman may be convinced that none of the men who are running for a particular office would offer qualified and/or honest service for the benefit of those they represent. If God has given her the gifts to fill such an office well, she may feel the greater harm is to allow less than qualified candidates to fill those positions.
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=30&cuItem_itemID=13974
And it has been stated before that if a wife votes against here husband in a political election the woman would be sinning (personal conversation with a WELS DP).
Yet the Q and A site states: Scripture leaves a great deal to our conscientious Christian judgment as we live the role relationship principle in the world.
So my question remains. Does the headship principal apply to roles in society?
With the nomination of Sarah Palin as vice-president candidate for the Republican party, the WELS position on the role of women in society should be discussed by WELS pastors and laypeople. Are there any qualified male candidates for this postion? (to possibly be the executive officer of the free world ..over men and women)
The WELS teaching states:
A Christian woman may be convinced that none of the men who are running for a particular office would offer qualified and/or honest service for the benefit of those they represent. If God has given her the gifts to fill such an office well, she may feel the greater harm is to allow less than qualified candidates to fill those positions.
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=30&cuItem_itemID=13974
And it has been stated before that if a wife votes against here husband in a political election the woman would be sinning (personal conversation with a WELS DP).
Yet the Q and A site states: Scripture leaves a great deal to our conscientious Christian judgment as we live the role relationship principle in the world.
So my question remains. Does the headship principal apply to roles in society?
Friday, August 29, 2008
CG vs Contemporary WELS Worship - by Tim
Chart created by: Tim Niedfeldtto view this chart more clearly visit Tim's blog at: (click on the chart)
http://ventosusveritas.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, August 27, 2008
The discussion continues
Anonymous said...
Please assure me we're not finished here. I count it a privilege to read the words of Fr. Pietrus Mons. I do miss the Motley Magpie.
August 27, 2008 5:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Wow! What?!? To Peter, at least, the OT priesthood and the NT priesthood of believers were different. He explains how the priesthood, which was limited to a few in the OT, now includes all of God's people in the NT. The OT priesthood was only a shadow, the NT priesthood of all believers is fulfillment.
August 26, 2008 10:17 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:17,
Pull out your Tappert again. All are priests, as Luther asserts, but not all are minister, again as Luther asserts. Sorry, I don't have a Tappert so I can't give you a reference. You can trust Tappert about as far as you can throw it, and I threw mine quite far one day. Maybe that's why I can't find it.The pastor stands in the stead of Christ (Gee, that was in the old wels hymnal's absolution, not anymore!). He mediates. It goes through him. The Aboslution, the preached Word, the Eucharist goes through him. Yes, people can say their prayers directly to God. But they also bring their prayers to church for the pastor to say. Mediation again.
To follow your line of reasoning, why every wels person could celebrate Holy Communion in his own house, without thought of ordination (an adiaphoron). The only thing stopping this according to the wels is good order. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14:40, the sedes doctrinae of tidiness.
Why do I torture myself like this!?! Cuz I like shooting fish in a barrel. Fr. Pietrus Mons
Please assure me we're not finished here. I count it a privilege to read the words of Fr. Pietrus Mons. I do miss the Motley Magpie.
August 27, 2008 5:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
~ Wow! What?!? To Peter, at least, the OT priesthood and the NT priesthood of believers were different. He explains how the priesthood, which was limited to a few in the OT, now includes all of God's people in the NT. The OT priesthood was only a shadow, the NT priesthood of all believers is fulfillment.
August 26, 2008 10:17 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:17,
Pull out your Tappert again. All are priests, as Luther asserts, but not all are minister, again as Luther asserts. Sorry, I don't have a Tappert so I can't give you a reference. You can trust Tappert about as far as you can throw it, and I threw mine quite far one day. Maybe that's why I can't find it.The pastor stands in the stead of Christ (Gee, that was in the old wels hymnal's absolution, not anymore!). He mediates. It goes through him. The Aboslution, the preached Word, the Eucharist goes through him. Yes, people can say their prayers directly to God. But they also bring their prayers to church for the pastor to say. Mediation again.
To follow your line of reasoning, why every wels person could celebrate Holy Communion in his own house, without thought of ordination (an adiaphoron). The only thing stopping this according to the wels is good order. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14:40, the sedes doctrinae of tidiness.
Why do I torture myself like this!?! Cuz I like shooting fish in a barrel. Fr. Pietrus Mons
Confessional Crusaders - let the pilgrimage begin
It seems that the blogging gauntlet has been thrown down: http://ventosusveritas.blogspot.com/
Tim – the nutty folk on Bailing Water certainly never back down from a fight, this is especially true when the soldiers of the cross are clinging to the truths of Scripture. As stated in the Formula of Concord, “we believe, teach, and confess that in a time of persecution, when an unequivocal confession of the faith is demanded of us, we dare not yield to the opponents in indifferent matters.”
The Reformation began because a nutty monk was not indifferent but upset about the practices of the church. Bad practice led to false doctrine so the practice was changed. Bad practices in our churches are leading to false doctrine in the pulpits and beyond.
About the false doctrine from the pulpit you say, in reference to the plagiarized Baptists sermons: I'm sure they would have been rather confounded if the same sermon was delivered at a traditional congregation. What now...
This illustrates the point completely. This sermon did not happen at a confessional church with strong Lutheran practices. It happened at a WELS church that has adopted the practices of the Baptists and Methodists.
You also say, “The Liturgy has trancended from being a Christ-centered worship guide to becoming the only acceptable form of worship”
The liturgy is a practice that teaches and points to Christ. There is nothing in scripture that says you have to dress nicely when you go to church, be reverent at church, observe Sunday as the day of worship, or fold your hands and bow your head when you pray. These are practices that I must teach my children. These things become a habit. Habits are hard to break. The liturgy should remain unbroken. The best way to change a doctrine is to break the tradition or practice.
Don’t we love our Lutheran doctrine and practice? I guess it is time to raise the Confessional flag to all the nutty Confessional Crusaders.
Tim – the nutty folk on Bailing Water certainly never back down from a fight, this is especially true when the soldiers of the cross are clinging to the truths of Scripture. As stated in the Formula of Concord, “we believe, teach, and confess that in a time of persecution, when an unequivocal confession of the faith is demanded of us, we dare not yield to the opponents in indifferent matters.”
The Reformation began because a nutty monk was not indifferent but upset about the practices of the church. Bad practice led to false doctrine so the practice was changed. Bad practices in our churches are leading to false doctrine in the pulpits and beyond.
About the false doctrine from the pulpit you say, in reference to the plagiarized Baptists sermons: I'm sure they would have been rather confounded if the same sermon was delivered at a traditional congregation. What now...
This illustrates the point completely. This sermon did not happen at a confessional church with strong Lutheran practices. It happened at a WELS church that has adopted the practices of the Baptists and Methodists.
You also say, “The Liturgy has trancended from being a Christ-centered worship guide to becoming the only acceptable form of worship”
The liturgy is a practice that teaches and points to Christ. There is nothing in scripture that says you have to dress nicely when you go to church, be reverent at church, observe Sunday as the day of worship, or fold your hands and bow your head when you pray. These are practices that I must teach my children. These things become a habit. Habits are hard to break. The liturgy should remain unbroken. The best way to change a doctrine is to break the tradition or practice.
Don’t we love our Lutheran doctrine and practice? I guess it is time to raise the Confessional flag to all the nutty Confessional Crusaders.
Sunday, August 24, 2008
St. Mark's - Identity Confusion (Indentity?)
Not long ago I pointed out to the pastors at St. Mark's that their published sermons had a reformed flavor. Or as some might say they were plagiarized. The St. Mark's pastors then began to use footnotes to cite their reformed sources.
Recently St. Mark's has pulled written sermons from their web site.
no more printed sermons
But you can view the video of this cutting edge church:
http://stmarkpartners.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=121
and the indentity audio:
http://stmarkpartnersindentitycrisis
Recently St. Mark's has pulled written sermons from their web site.
no more printed sermons
But you can view the video of this cutting edge church:
http://stmarkpartners.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=121
and the indentity audio:
http://stmarkpartnersindentitycrisis
Saturday, August 23, 2008
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar
An interesting conference coming up that some of you might be aware of or unaware of or maybe being WELS just wary of:
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar --
------------------------------------------------------------
http://liturgyseminar.blogspot.com/
http://gottesblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/plan-ahead-oktoberfest-is-coming.html
http://rev aaron moldenhauer receives sabre of boldness
Schedule of Events
Sunday, October 12
5 pm Autumn Choral vespers, anticipating the Festival of Harvest
6 pm Annual bratwurst banquet
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt: Annual Presentation of Awards, sort of . . .
Monday, October 13 (Oktoberfest Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass: FESTIVAL OF HARVEST
Fr. Eckardt, celebrant and preacher
Mr. Steve Harris, subdeacon
11:00-11:50 a.m. “An Overview of the History of the WELS - Fr. Aaron Moldenhauer
12:00 noon Office of Sext
12:15 p.m. Lunch
1:00 -1:50 p.m. The Office of the Holy Ministry in the WELS - Fr. John Berg
2:00 – 2:50 p.m. The Roles of Men and Women- Mrs. Tabitha Moldenhauer
3:00 – 3:50 p.m. The Doctrine of Fellowship in the WELS- Fr. Peter Berg
Tuesday, October 9 (Liturgical Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass
11:00 a.m.-3:15 p.m. Seminar
Private Confession available Monday morningAnyone desiring the Sacrament of Absolution may come to the church on Monday morning between 8:00 and 9:00. The confessional is the vestry, located just inside the door which enters the church from the hallway to the west. A sign will be posted on the door, indicating that if the door is ajar, the penitent may enter. If it is closed, please (sic) (knock??? listen in?? take notes?? run???make the sign of the cross?? )
Thirteenth Annual Octoberfest and Liturgical Seminar --
------------------------------------------------------------
St. Paul’s Evangelical-Lutheran Church
Kewanee, Illinois
October 12-14, 2008
Kewanee, Illinois
October 12-14, 2008
http://liturgyseminar.blogspot.com/
http://gottesblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/plan-ahead-oktoberfest-is-coming.html
http://rev aaron moldenhauer receives sabre of boldness
Schedule of Events
Sunday, October 12
5 pm Autumn Choral vespers, anticipating the Festival of Harvest
6 pm Annual bratwurst banquet
Rev. Dr. Burnell Eckardt: Annual Presentation of Awards, sort of . . .
Monday, October 13 (Oktoberfest Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass: FESTIVAL OF HARVEST
Fr. Eckardt, celebrant and preacher
Mr. Steve Harris, subdeacon
11:00-11:50 a.m. “An Overview of the History of the WELS - Fr. Aaron Moldenhauer
12:00 noon Office of Sext
12:15 p.m. Lunch
1:00 -1:50 p.m. The Office of the Holy Ministry in the WELS - Fr. John Berg
2:00 – 2:50 p.m. The Roles of Men and Women- Mrs. Tabitha Moldenhauer
3:00 – 3:50 p.m. The Doctrine of Fellowship in the WELS- Fr. Peter Berg
Tuesday, October 9 (Liturgical Seminar)
9:00-9:30 a.m. Registration
9:30 a.m. Holy Mass
11:00 a.m.-3:15 p.m. Seminar
Private Confession available Monday morningAnyone desiring the Sacrament of Absolution may come to the church on Monday morning between 8:00 and 9:00. The confessional is the vestry, located just inside the door which enters the church from the hallway to the west. A sign will be posted on the door, indicating that if the door is ajar, the penitent may enter. If it is closed, please (sic) (knock??? listen in?? take notes?? run???make the sign of the cross?? )
Sunday, August 17, 2008
The difficulty in rooting out CG
In response to a question on why the WELS leadership doesn't discpline the CG gurus in the WELS....
-----------------------
Anonymous said...
The problem with the CG movement is how subtle and insidious it is. It can be easily "covered up" by pastors and churches who hide their false motivation and lack of faith in the Means by saying the right words. Because of this, it can be very difficult for leaders to identify and discipline CG supporters. A CG pastor might indicate by his worship styles and practices that he doesn't trust the Means of Grace, but when a DP talks to him and he says, "Don't worry, I trust the Means, I'm just trying something new", what exactly can be done? There isn't really any hard evidence of false doctrine.
You asked specifically about teaching decision theology and sacraments as ordinances. Would CG pastors in the WELS ever admit (to themselves even) that they believed or taught these things? No way. But do they teach them by the way they worship? Absolutely. (But of course, CG teaches that worship style has nothing to do with doctrine, and thus they can't understand how their worship actually is teaching these things.)
With that said, though, I certainly wish our leaders had the courage of Luther to say of the CG pastors, "They have a different spirit," and to remove them from fellowship.
-----------------------
Anonymous said...
The problem with the CG movement is how subtle and insidious it is. It can be easily "covered up" by pastors and churches who hide their false motivation and lack of faith in the Means by saying the right words. Because of this, it can be very difficult for leaders to identify and discipline CG supporters. A CG pastor might indicate by his worship styles and practices that he doesn't trust the Means of Grace, but when a DP talks to him and he says, "Don't worry, I trust the Means, I'm just trying something new", what exactly can be done? There isn't really any hard evidence of false doctrine.
You asked specifically about teaching decision theology and sacraments as ordinances. Would CG pastors in the WELS ever admit (to themselves even) that they believed or taught these things? No way. But do they teach them by the way they worship? Absolutely. (But of course, CG teaches that worship style has nothing to do with doctrine, and thus they can't understand how their worship actually is teaching these things.)
With that said, though, I certainly wish our leaders had the courage of Luther to say of the CG pastors, "They have a different spirit," and to remove them from fellowship.
St. Mark's writes our worship history
The pastors at St. Mark's in Green Bay have the diffinitive word on worship. Contemporary worship is the truly historical form of worship. But yet they once again don't cite their sources. Yet the recent worship conference claims our root are liturgical. Which way is it?
http://stmarkpartners.org/downloads/Worship.pdf
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VC59bnr7QcQJ:www.churchfromscratch.net/downloads/KelmWorship.doc+church+from+scratch+kelm&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Why is it that the contemporary church's are so cross :(
http://www.crosswalkphoenix.com/
http://crossroadschicago.org/index.html
and this site now leads to a new missional church:
http://www.churchfromscratch.net/
http://stmarkpartners.org/downloads/Worship.pdf
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VC59bnr7QcQJ:www.churchfromscratch.net/downloads/KelmWorship.doc+church+from+scratch+kelm&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Why is it that the contemporary church's are so cross :(
http://www.crosswalkphoenix.com/
http://crossroadschicago.org/index.html
and this site now leads to a new missional church:
http://www.churchfromscratch.net/
Saturday, August 9, 2008
liturgical vs. non-liturgical (WELS worship wars)
Anonymous said...
"Christ-centered worship that highlights Word and Sacraments and rightly presents Law and Gospel in a liturgical or non-liturgical worship format is truly Lutheran; both are fine with me."This sounds great in theory, but it just doesn't work this way in real life. The liturgy was specifically designed to do exactly what you said--be Christ-centered, highlighting Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel. The church has found this to be true over the course of 2 millennia.Non-liturgical (contemporary) worship was designed by those who wanted worship to be man-centered, who didn't value Word and Sacrament or Law and Gospel, and who were arrogant enough to throw away 2 millennia of church history in favor of its own trends.Thus, if you want to be Lutheran, if you want to be Christ-centered, valuing Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel, you must follow the liturgy. Not because this is a Scriptural law, but because there is no other option out there which does the same thing.
August 9, 2008 11:04 AM
"Christ-centered worship that highlights Word and Sacraments and rightly presents Law and Gospel in a liturgical or non-liturgical worship format is truly Lutheran; both are fine with me."This sounds great in theory, but it just doesn't work this way in real life. The liturgy was specifically designed to do exactly what you said--be Christ-centered, highlighting Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel. The church has found this to be true over the course of 2 millennia.Non-liturgical (contemporary) worship was designed by those who wanted worship to be man-centered, who didn't value Word and Sacrament or Law and Gospel, and who were arrogant enough to throw away 2 millennia of church history in favor of its own trends.Thus, if you want to be Lutheran, if you want to be Christ-centered, valuing Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel, you must follow the liturgy. Not because this is a Scriptural law, but because there is no other option out there which does the same thing.
August 9, 2008 11:04 AM
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