tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post8216754838944018480..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: The Church and Change group is not divisive – Dr. Mark BraunUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-6824593527965572182007-11-07T11:02:00.000-06:002007-11-07T11:02:00.000-06:00"Never in my life have I ever heard one WELS pasto..."Never in my life have I ever heard one WELS pastor use another as the object of ridicule in a sermon to get some cheap laughs. That's what those of us in the WELS who are still confessional are to the C&Cers--a joke."<BR/><BR/>How can you claim to know what motivated Dr. Braun? Can you read a man's heart? And how can you know what persective "the C&Cers" have of their WELS brothers who prefer more conservative methodology? Having attended the C&C conference, I can tell you that all of the WELS pastors I sawe in attendance are all, to my knowledge, confessional men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-17305221305275541672007-11-07T10:48:00.000-06:002007-11-07T10:48:00.000-06:00"Any Lutheran pastor quoting Charles Spurgeon favo..."Any Lutheran pastor quoting Charles Spurgeon favorably doesn't deserve to be in the pulpit."<BR/><BR/>Is that a joke, or are you seriously suggesting that pastors should not quote those who are not in 100% doctrinal agreement? If that's the case, then Luther himself (who certainly was not shy about quoting the church fathers favorably, even though many of them were heterodox) should never have been allowed to step into the pulpit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-59036138708024536062007-10-23T20:41:00.000-05:002007-10-23T20:41:00.000-05:00The sermon audio is still there. However, the ser...The sermon audio is still there. However, the sermon author had no knowledge that the sermon was going to be posted online.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-86774216737446244822007-10-23T19:11:00.000-05:002007-10-23T19:11:00.000-05:00I didn't write that, but I think the point was tha...I didn't write that, but I think the point was that most in the WELS don't see a doctrinal problem with a pastor using a sermon to support his own agenda rather than to preach law and gospel. The way I see it, that's a huge doctrinal problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-61813762690799598092007-10-23T18:37:00.000-05:002007-10-23T18:37:00.000-05:00Anonymous wrote:"'Could anyone accuse him of false...Anonymous wrote:<BR/><BR/>"'Could anyone accuse him of false doctrine with his sermon? No.' <BR/><BR/>"And this is in a nutshell the problem with the WELS."<BR/><BR/>Not teaching false doctrine is a "problem?" I think anyone concerned about the WELS would rejoice over this! Where are you coming from with this remark?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-62597431668771429932007-10-23T16:16:00.000-05:002007-10-23T16:16:00.000-05:00"It looks like the audio has been removed from C&C..."It looks like the audio has been removed from C&C website." <BR/><BR/>My mistake. When you go to the website you have to choose 2007 and 2007 conference from the scroll down menus before anything shows up. I didn't remember having to do that the first time I looked for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-32061810406186053212007-10-23T15:49:00.000-05:002007-10-23T15:49:00.000-05:00Not a fan of the sermon, but I just checked and th...Not a fan of the sermon, but I just checked and the audio is still up...listening to it right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-57835610565585415472007-10-23T15:43:00.000-05:002007-10-23T15:43:00.000-05:00"Could anyone accuse him of false doctrine with hi..."Could anyone accuse him of false doctrine with his sermon? No. "<BR/><BR/>And this is in a nutshell the problem with the WELS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-42132363981266002612007-10-23T13:45:00.000-05:002007-10-23T13:45:00.000-05:00I didn't think it was all that bad. No, he shouldn...I didn't think it was all that bad. <BR/><BR/>No, he shouldn't have used Pastor Bartling's quote the way he did. That should be pursued by Pastor Bartling, and I would hope there would be an apology forthcoming. He talked a lot about the gospel, but what the gospel actually is came out toward the end, not as clearly as I would have preferred. I don't recall hearing any law. <BR/><BR/>Overall, I think this would have been better to use for a keynote address or a presentation, rather than a sermon.<BR/><BR/>Could anyone accuse him of false doctrine with his sermon? No. Could he have proclaimed law and gospel in a clearer way? Yes. should he have used Pastor Bartling's quote for a cheap joke? By no means.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-33047421288299907442007-10-23T12:32:00.000-05:002007-10-23T12:32:00.000-05:00Here is what Rev. Ash said awhile back when asked ...Here is what Rev. Ash said awhile back when asked if the conference will be taped:<BR/><BR/><B>for a variety of reasons we will not be taping the conference...I believe that one presenter is making arrangements to have his workshop taped on his own.<BR/> <BR/>Rev. Ash</B>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-15627381772659565922007-10-23T12:17:00.000-05:002007-10-23T12:17:00.000-05:00Sent<A HREF="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6914930518679208178&q=SEMINEX&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2" REL="nofollow">Sent</A>RandomDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03787185732614416948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-72865682769193415962007-10-23T12:12:00.000-05:002007-10-23T12:12:00.000-05:00It looks like the audio has been removed from C&C ...It looks like the audio has been removed from C&C website. They're on to you John!!! (maybe they are planning to re-post it as an MP3).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-58874724598799224592007-10-23T10:46:00.000-05:002007-10-23T10:46:00.000-05:00This all suprises me. I've always known Dr. Braun...This all suprises me. I've always known Dr. Braun to be a good man. I don't think I'd ever heard him preach before and I admit that this speech isn't much of a sermon, but I hope this is something that can be resolved without any undue damage to his family, reputation, and career.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-48293994879376174392007-10-23T09:55:00.000-05:002007-10-23T09:55:00.000-05:00Dr. Braun quoted a part of the Wauwautosa Theology...Dr. Braun quoted a part of the Wauwautosa Theology when he said the gospel creates its own forms. This is the same thing the Seminex group in the LCMS said. <BR/><BR/>See the video below. If this doesn't come through correctly, it's on Google video. Just search for Seminex. The title is "Sent".<BR/><BR/>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6914930518679208178&q=seminex&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-41736717789972754602007-10-23T09:16:00.000-05:002007-10-23T09:16:00.000-05:00"Then he continued and explained what the bible sa..."Then he continued and explained what the bible said about change in the church."<BR/><BR/>Not exactly. His defense was very weak. He did quote Scripture but had to add a lot to it to make it agree with him. Any Lutheran pastor quoting Charles Spurgeon favorably doesn't deserve to be in the pulpit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-90357582200540143942007-10-23T06:52:00.000-05:002007-10-23T06:52:00.000-05:00What bothers me more than the cheap shot is the ab...What bothers me more than the cheap shot is the absolute lack of both law and gospel in the sermon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-54266086204547972302007-10-22T22:57:00.000-05:002007-10-22T22:57:00.000-05:00After listening, I can't say I am convinced that i...After listening, I can't say I am convinced that it was meant to be funny.<BR/><BR/>Nor does it seem like a cheap shot to me.<BR/><BR/>He immediately follows up the quote asking the question - what is wrong with change? This follow-up could have been designed to elicit further laughter but did not - it asked some serious questions about change in the church. Then he continued and explained what the bible said about change in the church.<BR/><BR/>So he challenged some words that were spoken in public. Hmm. Much like goes on here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-72929816636841552192007-10-22T22:06:00.000-05:002007-10-22T22:06:00.000-05:00Never in my life have I ever heard one WELS pastor...Never in my life have I ever heard one WELS pastor use another as the object of ridicule in a sermon to get some cheap laughs. That's what those of us in the WELS who are still confessional are to the C&Cers--a joke.<BR/><BR/>How disgusting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-35496198580118108612007-10-22T21:51:00.000-05:002007-10-22T21:51:00.000-05:00I don't know if Pastor Bartling is still in the ac...I don't know if Pastor Bartling is still in the active ministry or not. But he needs to pursue this through his DP and Synod President if need be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-67173576334605687722007-10-22T21:35:00.000-05:002007-10-22T21:35:00.000-05:00The WELS is always a day late and a dollar short i...The WELS is always a day late and a dollar short in jumping on the latest fads. Yes, the sermon is a .wav file instead of the compressed, .mpg file. Most teenagers who are computer savvy know that .wav files are too big, even with broadband access. That was a really cheap shot by Dr. Braun against Rev. Bartling. Furthermore, if the tables were turned, Rev. Bartling would be getting flogged with the "8 & 18 switch" (8th commandment & Matthew Chapter 18) by not approaching the offender on an individual basis. Even though, neither admonition applies when the sin is public.rlschultzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06630817145398320061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-58002142841449403402007-10-22T19:52:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:52:00.000-05:00I just wanted to agree with the person who mention...I just wanted to agree with the person who mentioned that compared to "evangelical" Christianity...our "efforts" at praise bands and what not is pretty laughable.<BR/><BR/>Plus, they can't so any live streaming nor do they seem to be able to condense their audio files....so odd. <BR/><BR/>I hate when things get nasty--snarky and "tit for tat"...it's all very high schoolish. It is really saddening to hear it being utilized in a sermon...revolting.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link. I'm off to listen to the "sermon" (is that truly what it was?).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-16738887269802391242007-10-22T19:03:00.000-05:002007-10-22T19:03:00.000-05:00Here's my reaction to the sermon:It sounded more l...Here's my reaction to the sermon:<BR/><BR/>It sounded more like a defense for the existence of C&C than a sermon proclaiming law and gospel.<BR/><BR/>There wasn't really any law. Instead of calling the congregation to repentance for the times when they have lost confidence in the power of the gospel, he sought to justify their opinion that we can make the gospel more effective.<BR/><BR/>There wasn't really any gospel. He talked a lot about the gospel, but never actually proclaimed the gospel itself. He spent more time talking about old TV characters than Christ.<BR/><BR/>The sermon was filled with little jabs at those silly, unenlightened WELS pastors and people who aren't a part of their special little group. The condescending laughter after each jab revealed exactly how C&C people view the rest of us poor WELS people. (The laughter of the Pietistic cell groups in Spener's day toward the rest of the Lutheran church probably sounded quite similar.) <BR/><BR/>In short, it was a propaganda piece, not a proclamation of law and gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-42133424250833452392007-10-22T18:37:00.000-05:002007-10-22T18:37:00.000-05:00randomdan brings up a really interesting point. T...randomdan brings up a really interesting point. The Church and Changers see themselves as cutting-edge innovators within the WELS, but compared to the church and the world at large, they're really far, far behind the times. The audio file is an example of this. They think they're making their churches seem cutting edge and innovative, but when a visitor compares the WELS praise band to the megachurch praise band or the WELS PowerPoint to the PowerPoint they saw last week at work, the WELS church seems cheesy and behind the times. Let's be honest, praise bands and PowerPoint aren't the strong points of the Lutheran church. Why not focus on what are our strong points--the liturgy and Scriptural doctrine? Those are the things that we can do excellently. Those are the things that can set us apart from the Evangelical churches. And yet those are the very things that C&C seek to eliminate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-86136561612739879612007-10-22T18:14:00.000-05:002007-10-22T18:14:00.000-05:00Has Church and Change even made it into the late 9...Has Church and Change even made it into the late 90s? That audio file is huge. Do these people not know how to use mp3's?RandomDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03787185732614416948noreply@blogger.com