tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post7951966480746576265..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: Freddy saysUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-47980649494491853342008-12-01T21:25:00.000-06:002008-12-01T21:25:00.000-06:00Ben,I'm glad you found the postings useful. Thanks...Ben,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you found the postings useful. Thanks for sticking around, and don't hesitate to continue offering your own thoughts and questions!<BR/><BR/>Lord's Blessings,<BR/><BR/><B>Freddy Finkelstein</B>Freddy Finkelsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594126750060699424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-36190827266324348492008-12-01T12:51:00.000-06:002008-12-01T12:51:00.000-06:00Thank you again, Freddy, for your thoughtful analy...Thank you again, Freddy, for your thoughtful analysis and explanation. I've had some time to read through your post and the relevant discussions you linked to. I think most of my questions were a result of my ignorance of the definition and methodology of church growth. I understand more clearly now the differences between our historical liturgical service and the new contemporary church growth services. I think one of the most important realizations I've had is the difference between the church service and evangelizing. They are two very different and distinct activities. Thank you to everyone here for the knowledgeable, and mostly civil :), discussion!<BR/><BR/>BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-14786848646808102102008-11-21T11:18:00.000-06:002008-11-21T11:18:00.000-06:00"If I keep the important elements and use a differ..."If I keep the important elements and use a different music style, I believe there is nothing wrong with this."<BR/><BR/>And what exactly would you consider "the important elements"? And who are you to get to decide what's important or not? Two-thousand years of church history have taught us what's important and what's not.<BR/><BR/>Besides, the contempo crowd does not advocate retaining the liturgy while changing musical styles. The contempo crowd favors dumping the liturgy in favor of chancel dramas and reading mission statements in the middle of worship. Or are those the things that you deem to be "the important elements"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-9747597162710862462008-11-21T10:18:00.000-06:002008-11-21T10:18:00.000-06:00Part of the CG methodology is to start small or as...Part of the CG methodology is to start small or as an addition or as a temporary trial. Well, a little yeast leavens the whole lump. And dynamic change is the professed goal of church growth advocates. So it won't stop - as evident by those having their foot in the door already.<BR/><BR/>What's interesting, though, is the research has been done (as Freddy's posts have attested) and the methodology is a documented failure. Yet, for some reason, we should give it a shot in the Lutheran church to see what the Holy Spirit can do with it here. We're trying the same failed methods but expecting a different result. Insanity. Maybe this time it will be different...<BR/><BR/>I think it's difficult to be prudent with the experimentation because it opens up so many subjective alternatives - making church a social science project; constantly having to reinvent itself to keep up pace with the culture - a culture that abhors Christ. And once we see church as a place to go for what becomes primarily an emotional experience, we'll see the mega-church down the street can do it much better. <BR/><BR/>What is the purpose of church? Is it not to feed the sheep - even, gasp, those in the fold? What is the need that everyone has and everyone needs to feel? Forgiveness of sins. That doesn't need to be marketed, it just needs to be proclaimed. You can't minimize the Law to lessen its offensiveness. The Gospel isn't sweet without knowing the fatal situation of the flesh. This can't be watered down to make people feel comfortable. This can't be marketed to convince people it's a good buy. The Gospel doesn't need man's innovation. It only needs proclamation.<BR/><BR/>The beauty of the Divine Service is its Gospel proclamation in a reverent fashion before a Holy God with a focus on Christ. Rock and roll was designed to be associated with rebellion and to focus on man. Well, let's try hip hop then, or country, or whatever ... as long as the words include Jesus. <BR/><BR/>I believe that many of those entrapped by the CG methodology really have good intentions with a love for the lost. But we all know where even best intentions can lead. <BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-47140467928242441132008-11-21T09:38:00.000-06:002008-11-21T09:38:00.000-06:00I think we are talking about two different things....I think we are talking about two different things. If I keep the important elements and use a different music style, I believe there is nothing wrong with this. What's wrong is clinging to high church litugical saying this is the ONLY way and not willing to budge one iota. That is dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-63798255206303756362008-11-21T08:55:00.000-06:002008-11-21T08:55:00.000-06:00"One side says there is danger in changing things...."One side says there is danger in changing things. I think if you are prudent, change is OK. On the other hand I see this clinging to tradition just as dangerous."<BR/><BR/>No! This is the biggest strawman fallacy in this entire debate. The Church and Changers try to portray liturgical worship as a stagnant clinging to the way things have always been done. This is stupid and untrue. The liturgy is very accepting of change. That's why it has been used by Christians across the world across the centuries. The liturgy is the basic framework upon which all sorts of different musical styles and settings can be placed. High mass at the Vatican and a liturgical service in the African bush will look completely different, yet they are both the liturgy, they both focus on Christ, no man.<BR/><BR/>Contempo worship, on the other hand, is not about small, prudent change. It is about abandoning 2000 years of wisdom and history and tradition for the sake of modern trends. Think about that for a second. This is the first time in the history of the Church in which Christians have seen fit to reject wholesale everything the Church has ever done for the sake of doing their own thing and following their own desires. That's what is truly dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-8532389007854525752008-11-20T21:22:00.000-06:002008-11-20T21:22:00.000-06:00I don't know...One side says there is danger in ch...I don't know...One side says there is danger in changing things. I think if you are prudent, change is OK. On the other hand I see this clinging to tradition just as dangerous. I mean, the sects in Jesus time thought they had everything right. And look what happened. I'm just saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-7786766060031906642008-11-20T10:19:00.000-06:002008-11-20T10:19:00.000-06:00To be honest, I think you are seeing a subtle shif...To be honest, I think you are seeing a subtle shift in some of the younger fresh-out-of-seminary pastors, who seem to be taking a more confessional stance. Maybe it's just me, but that's my take.<BR/><BR/>Also, I would suggest that anyone who has any interest in worship (and it seems like most here do) read "Gathered Guests" by Timothy Maschke. It is wonderful book that I found I couldn't put down. It is a book that the worship mavens in WELS think highly of (the Aaron Christies etc.), and is considered to be one of the top resources on Lutheran liturgical worship.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Humility PoliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-7239235392931616232008-11-20T08:48:00.000-06:002008-11-20T08:48:00.000-06:00"my assessment is that there is a great degree of ..."my assessment is that there is a great degree of ignorance of the Lutheran Confessions among WELS laity."<BR/><BR/>Which comes from their pastors which comes from the Seminary. Sad, but true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-73009443909811154742008-11-20T07:00:00.000-06:002008-11-20T07:00:00.000-06:00Rob,Your observation about conservative WELS laity...Rob,<BR/>Your observation about conservative WELS laity reading outside of Lutheranism is spot on. I have noticed that in my own WELS congregation. Lifelong WELS members quickly jump on the latest evangelical book offering without being faithful Bereans. It is very disheartening. One explanation that I heard is that that there is so much that is wrong in the secular realm, that we should use whatever we can from "Christian" resources. All that glitters is not gold. As a WELS lifer, I can say with a great degree of certainty that we have been taught in a subtle way to hate Missouri. Yes, NPH sells some of the more common books of Walther, etc. Apparently, the synodical conference breakup has created a lot of bad blood. Still, it would be great to see WELS members think outside of the synod box. Unfortunately, my assessment is that there is a great degree of ignorance of the Lutheran Confessions among WELS laity. This may explain why we are in the current mess.rlschultzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06630817145398320061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-37269474726166309252008-11-19T19:51:00.000-06:002008-11-19T19:51:00.000-06:00I didn't take it that Ben had already sold out...I didn't take it that Ben had already sold out to C&C, just as bored with his traditional service and curious about contemporary. I also took him seriously inquiring as Freddy did, and thought he was approaching it rationally. That is unlike many C&C advocates who I think would find Freddy's argument difficult to refute.<BR/><BR/>It's interesting to me, in viewing a bit about Ed Stetzer, it seems his battle is against the conservatives in the Southern Baptist denomination as well, not unlike what the church growth crowd finds in WELS. That really defines it as a methodology for me.<BR/><BR/>And, as kind of an aside, it is curious to me that WELS (even conservative WELS) would rather read something from outside of Lutheranism than something from someone from Missouri. Just an observation. <BR/><BR/>I read Parton's article about white-wine pietists, written over a decade ago, and things haven't changed much. An interesting short read if you have the time.<BR/><BR/>RobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-21173998769319897982008-11-19T17:20:00.000-06:002008-11-19T17:20:00.000-06:00I'll agree with Mr. Humility Police -- there's a l...I'll agree with Mr. Humility Police -- there's a lot to absorb, and to do so thoughtfully takes a bit of time. No chest-thumping here! I'm personally waiting to hear Ben's response before replying further.<BR/><BR/><B>Freddy Finkelstein</B>Freddy Finkelsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594126750060699424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-57259982261728340922008-11-19T17:00:00.000-06:002008-11-19T17:00:00.000-06:00"Points them back to Scripture"Where did he do tha..."Points them back to Scripture"<BR/><BR/>Where did he do that? I did note many imperatives but none from Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Just shout'inAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-32962391185169909272008-11-19T16:17:00.000-06:002008-11-19T16:17:00.000-06:00Or...you could read the previous post over again a...Or...you could read the previous post over again and see that "Ben" intends to respond...he just didn't have the time to do so immediately. Rather, he was going to digest it and respond accordingly. Who is to say that others aren't doing the same?<BR/><BR/>I think I can hear unwarranted chest thumping.<BR/><BR/>boom...boom...<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/><BR/>The Humility PoliceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-90699112905775886792008-11-19T15:00:00.000-06:002008-11-19T15:00:00.000-06:00It interesting.. the CWers rant and rave. Freddy ...It interesting.. the CWers rant and rave. Freddy points them back to scripture and pure silence. <BR/><BR/>Listen..the rock and roll band has stopped playing..<BR/><BR/>I think you can hear the crickets chirping...<BR/><BR/>chirp ...chirp..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-36533550060956683792008-11-17T21:22:00.000-06:002008-11-17T21:22:00.000-06:00Freddy,Thank you for taking the time to respond so...Freddy,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly and thoughtfully! I do not have time tonight to study your response and your links to other posts. I will take the time in the next day or two, though, and then respond back with any thoughts or questions I may have.<BR/><BR/>I will try to share a little information about me so you know where my questions are coming from. I think I mentioned some of this in a previous post, so forgive me if I'm being a little redundant. I have been a life-long WELS member, since birth, for more than 30 years now. I have always attended traditional worship services. I don't recall ever attending a contemporary Lutheran worship service. In fact, I had never heard of Church and Change or Church Growth prior to visiting this blog several months ago. To be honest, I had never put much thought into why our traditional church services are the way they are, or why contemporary services would be looked down upon.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, while attending the same services year after year since childhood, I have most likely become complacent and simply follow routines without giving the service much thought, especially when going through the liturgical parts of the service. If nothing else, these discussions are helping me refocus on the worship service and helps me think about what I'm doing and why.<BR/><BR/>Thank you again for taking the time to give an in-depth response to my questions. I will definitely spend time studying your response, so know that your time spent answering my questions was not wasted!<BR/><BR/>BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-10116252212886505262008-11-17T20:26:00.000-06:002008-11-17T20:26:00.000-06:00http://www.wlsessays.net/node/2042http://www.wlsessays.net/node/2042Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-45549471520877160182008-11-17T20:11:00.000-06:002008-11-17T20:11:00.000-06:00Freddy,Thank you for your thought-filled and well-...Freddy,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your thought-filled and well-presented comment. The argument against liturgical worship continues to be one of changing as our culture shifts. These shifting sands will not cease. It is unfortunate that the Rock and Roll churches toss aside the liturgical forms of worship and fail to look back at the worship foundation that has continued throughout history. It seems when we fail to look at the past we sink into the quicksand of the culture. Our Lord knows that we have a human tendency to forget. Simply, look to the Israelites and the golden calf. How quickly they forgot that God had parted the sea. How quickly they took the local culture's god.<BR/><BR/>Freddy, thank you for painting a wonderfully colorful and beautiful picture using the various tints and hues of Scripture both OT and NT.<BR/><BR/>So as Rob would say...what he said...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.com