tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post7373010109679041448..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: Time of Grace - new hireUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger177125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-30059152387073236612009-04-27T15:01:00.000-05:002009-04-27T15:01:00.000-05:00Thank you so much for this website! It has done s...Thank you so much for this website! It has done so much to help me see all the bad things that are going on in our dear WELS! <br /><br />But do you have to keep calling each other names all the time! Especially in public!!! I remember one sermon where my poastor said that when people call each other names, that that really makes people think bad things about them! (I mean about the people doing the name-calling.) (I don't remember exactly what he said, and I'm sure he said it better than I can, but it wads something like that.) <br /><br />I guess what I'm saying is that, if there are really all these heretics in our WELS, then we should be saving all our name-calling for them! (Otherwise people (I mean most people like me) won't know who the good ones are and the bad ones. SO PLEASE STOP WITH ALL THE NAME CALLING AND GET BACK TO SMOKING OUT ALL THE HERETICS AND THOSE ROCK MUSICIANS!!!!!<br /><br />Thanks again and KEEP BAILING THE WATER!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-66231698776864241302009-03-22T18:59:00.000-05:002009-03-22T18:59:00.000-05:00First dk said:"I understand why folks choose the A...First dk said:<BR/><BR/>"I understand why folks choose the Anonymous option when leaving comments. I don't see a single thing wrong with that."<BR/><BR/>Then he said:<BR/><BR/>"All the cowards who leave anon postings are lame. Anon posters: Grow up! If you don't leave your name then I can only assume that you don't actually believe what you write. Cowards!"<BR/><BR/>My, my, that's quite a change of opinion over the course of a couple weeks! What in the world could have caused dk to make such change? Perhaps he didn't have a problem with anonymous commentators until they started making good points that he couldn't respond to, and so he decided to pull an ad hominem attack on their courage instead, forgetting that he had just said he found nothing wrong with anonymous comments. <BR/><BR/>Courageously AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-33822334893714742662009-03-21T23:36:00.000-05:002009-03-21T23:36:00.000-05:00Despite what I said about not dignifying the "blog...Despite what I said about not dignifying the "blog" medium I must make a comment.<BR/><BR/><BR/>JK (Krohn... sp?) made a comment. And then a multiple of anonymous posters made comment. JK (whoever he is) at least has the balls to list his initials. If you believe what you say then you should leave some identifying mark. All the cowards who leave anon postings are lame.<BR/><BR/>Anon posters: Grow up!<BR/><BR/>If you don't leave your name then I can only assume that you don't actually believe what you write.<BR/><BR/>Cowards!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-43770753869831521182009-03-17T22:25:00.000-05:002009-03-17T22:25:00.000-05:00"You don't know me or what I know much less been t..."You don't know me or what I know much less been to my church. And who is being nasty?"<BR/><BR/>What I say is based completely on your words here and on your blog. Your words demonstrate that you are ignorant about the history and theology of worship. (By the way, "ignorant" isn't a "nasty" word; it just means you lack knowledge.) Believe me, I've said everything that you've said; I've used every argument that you've used. In hindsight I can see how silly and ignorant I really was. There are many good resources out there to help you understand what the liturgy is all about. I implore you to read and study and think about them with an open mind. What have you got to lose?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-20444763309393923142009-03-17T22:17:00.000-05:002009-03-17T22:17:00.000-05:00JK (aka Joe),For what it's worth, I enjoy having b...JK (aka Joe),<BR/><BR/>For what it's worth, I enjoy having both you and Tim around on this blog. Stick around...<BR/><BR/><B>Freddy Finkelstein</B>Freddy Finkelsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594126750060699424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-14284389545929808292009-03-17T20:42:00.000-05:002009-03-17T20:42:00.000-05:00Anon 614,You don't know me or what I know much les...Anon 614,<BR/><BR/>You don't know me or what I know much less been to my church. And who is being nasty?<BR/><BR/>At least I have fortitude to hang it out there and put my name on it. Tomorrow I will be JK and you will still be an anonymous coward.<BR/><BR/>This is a waste...<BR/><BR/>Joe Krohn (aka JK)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-55944239995739483032009-03-17T18:14:00.000-05:002009-03-17T18:14:00.000-05:00Good news everyone! JK looked the word "liturgy" ...Good news everyone! JK looked the word "liturgy" up in the dictionary! He's done all the research he needs to do and can now speak as an expert about worship.<BR/><BR/>What arrogance!<BR/><BR/>You know what, JK? I used to be just like you. I had never learned about worship, about the liturgy, about anything. And yet I thought I had it all figured out. I mocked those who supported the liturgy, looked down on them, and patted myself on the back for being more progressive and advanced than those old Germans stuck in the 1500s. <BR/><BR/>But then I actually started learning about worship. I had the liturgy explained to me. I read books and listened to experts. And my eyes were opened to the majesty and beauty of the Western Rite and to the shallowness and emptiness of contemporary worship. <BR/><BR/>I know several other people to whom the exact same thing happened. In fact, I'd even be so bold as to say that those who support contemporary worship are almost always those who are most ignorant about worship and that those who support the liturgy are almost always those who are most educated about worship.<BR/><BR/>You have two choices, JK. You can respond with a nasty retort, and call me all kinds of terrible names ("legalist", etc). Or you can start learning everything you can about the history of worship, and specifically of the Western Rite. I'll bet you that if you do that with an open mind, you won't be so enamored with contemporary worship anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-46470522565529152702009-03-17T10:27:00.000-05:002009-03-17T10:27:00.000-05:00Anon 950,It sure would be nice to know I'm talking...Anon 950,<BR/><BR/>It sure would be nice to know I'm talking to. I doubt you would be talking like you are if you had to sign your name to it. You have no business posting if you can't own up. For someone who eschews principles, you are sorely lacking.<BR/><BR/>If you would look up the word in the dictionary, you would find that both of our definitions are right. But since you want to stay in the context of formality and ritual that's OK. But then how can you condemn my worship? We sing, have a confession, receive absolution, have corporate prayers, recite creeds, pray the Lord's Prayer, have baptisms and receive Lord's Supper. No one is discarding it like garbage.<BR/><BR/>I'm beginning to see responsible discussion is becoming more and more futile here.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-76676708116860651642009-03-17T09:50:00.000-05:002009-03-17T09:50:00.000-05:00"The last time I checked, liturgy is a generic ter..."The last time I checked, liturgy is a generic term. Although you probably wouldn't call the format we use at our a church a liturgy, it is still an order of worship, hence a liturgy whether you like it or not."<BR/><BR/>Good grief! JK, you are demonstrating your complete ignorance when it comes to liturgical worship. No, "liturgy" doesn't just mean any order of service. Where did you get that idea? If that were the case, all worship could be considered liturgical simply because things happened in order. When we talk about the liturgy, we are referring to the Western Rite, a particular order of service.<BR/><BR/>It's more than a bit discouraging to know that you have been arguing here for months about worship, without having educated yourself regarding what the liturgy is. Perhaps if you actually studied the liturgy and understood what it really is you wouldn't be so quick to discard it as garbage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-45300456606372220952009-03-17T09:14:00.000-05:002009-03-17T09:14:00.000-05:00"Huh? I don't understand this sentence at all. Are..."Huh? I don't understand this sentence at all. Are you saying that the liturgy, the Western Rite, and the Mass are not the same thing? If so, you're incorrect. Or are you saying that foreign missions don't use the liturgy? If so, you're also incorrect."<BR/><BR/>The last time I checked, liturgy is a generic term. Although you probably wouldn't call the format we use at our a church a liturgy, it is still an order of worship, hence a liturgy whether you like it or not. You are equating liturgy with ritual which is what the Western Rite and the Mass are.<BR/><BR/>There are foreign missions that have and continue to use different forms of liturgy as well as more modern instrumentation.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-56078608115644605512009-03-17T09:06:00.000-05:002009-03-17T09:06:00.000-05:00And then you have ELCA that keeps that Lutheran na...And then you have ELCA that keeps that Lutheran name and drags it through the mud with their shoddy doctrine. I wonder how many folks are put off by the name Lutheran? You see it can go both ways. I'm just saying.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-88004397307260453872009-03-16T22:21:00.000-05:002009-03-16T22:21:00.000-05:00"I was wondering today why JK is so surprised and ..."I was wondering today why JK is so surprised and offended that people would say that his church isn't Lutheran. His church does everything it can to distance itself from Lutheranism and everything it can do to associate itself with Evangelicalism."<BR/><BR/>Good question. If you reject the way that Lutherans have worshiped for 500 years and if you even remove the word "Lutheran" from the name of your church, then you have absolutely no right to be offended when people wonder if you're a Lutheran church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-11195535158482461052009-03-16T17:44:00.000-05:002009-03-16T17:44:00.000-05:00"John, if you are equating liturgy, Western Rite a..."John, if you are equating liturgy, Western Rite and the Mass, you are very ill informed about overseas missions."<BR/><BR/>Huh? I don't understand this sentence at all. Are you saying that the liturgy, the Western Rite, and the Mass are not the same thing? If so, you're incorrect. Or are you saying that foreign missions don't use the liturgy? If so, you're also incorrect.<BR/><BR/>I was wondering today why JK is so surprised and offended that people would say that his church isn't Lutheran. His church does everything it can to distance itself from Lutheranism and everything it can do to associate itself with Evangelicalism. Why, then, would you be surprised and offended by people saying you aren't Lutheran? It seems to me you should see it as a good sign that you have reached your goal and successfully de-Lutheranized yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-85930005904605998772009-03-16T13:41:00.000-05:002009-03-16T13:41:00.000-05:00John, if you are equating liturgy, Western Rite an...John, if you are equating liturgy, Western Rite and the Mass, you are very ill informed about overseas missions.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-34516807231690155692009-03-16T12:51:00.000-05:002009-03-16T12:51:00.000-05:00"I think there are some missionaries that would ta..."I think there are some missionaries that would take exception to what you and other folks are saying here if that is your answer (which is no)."<BR/><BR/>Well, JK, the truth is that, almost without exception, most foreign missionaries use the liturgy. They use the liturgy for two reasons. First, because they understand that the liturgy transcends culture, and is easily transferred from culture to culture. Second, because the people they serve would be offended if the missionaries tried to use the secular music of their society in worship. The people of the African bush want church music to sound nothing like the music of their pagan rituals. If only the people of America had the same depth of spiritual understanding as the people of the African bush!<BR/><BR/>"I tend to glaze over after awhile from all the blathering that goes on."<BR/><BR/>Is this your admission that you don't actually read what other people write here? That would explain your repeated demands for answers to questions that have already been answered. JK, have the respect to read what other people write before you respond to it. You might actually learn something!<BR/><BR/>"Maybe we need an official definition of what a Lutheran Confessional church is."<BR/><BR/>How about this: a "Lutheran Confessional church" is a church that subscribes unconditionally to the Lutheran Confessions, including the sentence "wrongly are we accused of abolishing the Mass"." Simple enough for you, JK?<BR/><BR/>"I guess by YOUR definition of what CL is, then my church would not be considered confessional."<BR/><BR/>Correct. Your church is not a Confessional Lutheran church for the simple reason that your congregation rejects what the Confessions have to say about worship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-39664906243811815052009-03-16T09:58:00.000-05:002009-03-16T09:58:00.000-05:00John,Wow.I think there are some missionaries that ...John,<BR/><BR/>Wow.<BR/><BR/>I think there are some missionaries that would take exception to what you and other folks are saying here if that is your answer (which is no). It was a yes or no question. I tend to glaze over after awhile from all the blathering that goes on.<BR/><BR/>Maybe we need an official definition of what a Lutheran Confessional church is. Maybe that's the problem. I guess by YOUR definition of what CL is, then my church would not be considered confessional. But the last time I checked neither you or anyone else on this blog is responsible for determining WELS doctrine. (Thank God!)<BR/><BR/>There. Now I blathered. There's your answer. I hope you can comprehend it.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-80573666033451152282009-03-15T20:40:00.000-05:002009-03-15T20:40:00.000-05:00"Do you consider WELS missions outside of the US (..."Do you consider WELS missions outside of the US (in other words other cultures) who do not worship according to the Western Rite Confessional Lutheran churches?"<BR/><BR/>JK - Is this the question you felt wasn’t answered?<BR/><BR/><B>I found a great post that addressed your question:<BR/><BR/>March 13, 2009 6:05 PM<BR/><BR/>I have already discussed this. The Confessors didn't explicitly say that the Western Rite is the correct way to worship God because it was simply assumed at that time. No one at that time would have even thought about discarding the Western Rite. <BR/><BR/>If the Confessors had even an inkling that in the future Lutherans would be discarding the Western Rite, they most certainly would have said in unmistakable terms that orthodox Lutherans use the Western Rite, and that those who don't use the Western Rite are no longer orthodox Lutherans. <BR/><BR/>Really, that's pretty much what they did say when they wrote "Falsely are we accused of abolishing the Mass." That's how deeply they valued the Western Rite. They were offended simply by the false rumor that they had abandoned the Western Rite. The Western Rite is so closely tied to Christianity that the Romans were claiming that the Lutherans had stopped using the Western Rite as proof that they weren't really Christian anymore. <BR/><BR/>We have to remember to read the Confessions in context, just as we read Scripture in context, just as we read everything in context. What I described above is the context of the Confessions. Use of the Western Rite didn't need to be explicitly written about because it was assumed.<BR/><BR/>Thus, you can't make the argument that the Confessions allow any form of worship imaginable simply because they don't name a specific form of worship. <BR/><BR/>It would be like coming up with a manual that describes what it means to be a human. Would you include a while chapter on the necessity of breathing? Probably not. Why not? Because breathing is optional? No, because breathing is so vital that it's assumed. That's what the Western Rite was to Lutherans, just as vital as breathing.</B><BR/><BR/>I'm sure you can comprehend this. Also, you have not clearly identified why a Rock and Roll church would abandon the historical church calendar and not honor the Lent season.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-17298050914311508562009-03-15T18:12:00.000-05:002009-03-15T18:12:00.000-05:00John,Thanks for all the kind words. I'm really to...John,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for all the kind words. I'm really touched.<BR/><BR/>My question did not get answer.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-54552171661549234242009-03-14T19:58:00.000-05:002009-03-14T19:58:00.000-05:00"I'm disappointed that my very good question did n..."I'm disappointed that my very good question did not get answer."<BR/><BR/>Are you kidding, dk? I provided a direct and lengthy answer to your question in the post immediately prior to the one in which you complained about not getting an answer. If you don't agree with the answer I gave, then explain why. But you can't simply pretend that I didn't answer your question at all as a way to try to win the argument without having to rebut the points I made.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-83197904405992168692009-03-14T19:20:00.000-05:002009-03-14T19:20:00.000-05:00"That's OK, dk. I asked a question twice that neve..."That's OK, dk. I asked a question twice that never got addressed. That's because they are stumped.<BR/><BR/>JK"<BR/><BR/>JK - You seem rather brash. I guess this comes from the worship style at the Rock and Roll church. For example, you claim there is no mandate to hold Lenten services. Why have our Lutheran churches recognized the historical Christian calendar for centuries? Is your pastor so much more insightful than other Lutheran theologians that he can toss the church calendar aside? Can't you find the right U2 tune to reflect the somber tone of the Lenten season?<BR/><BR/>Your questions have been clearly addressed in the above posts. It is clear that you don't believe that the Lutheran Confessions are a clear and correct interpretation of Scripture.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-37391102674039434932009-03-14T18:48:00.000-05:002009-03-14T18:48:00.000-05:00dk, JK, just because you didn't get the answers yo...dk, JK, just because you didn't get the answers you wanted to your questions doesn't mean that answers weren't provided. Reading through this thread, it's pretty clear that all of your questions have indeed been answered.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-31826960793302494132009-03-14T17:58:00.000-05:002009-03-14T17:58:00.000-05:00That's OK, dk. I asked a question twice that neve...That's OK, dk. I asked a question twice that never got addressed. That's because they are stumped.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-6665299508046555582009-03-14T15:52:00.000-05:002009-03-14T15:52:00.000-05:00I'm disappointed that my very good question did no...I'm disappointed that my very good question did not get answer. But I think know why.<BR/><BR/>Cherish the western rite and promote it. It's a rich body of work and saturated with God's Word.<BR/><BR/>But never turn it into a requirement, an exclusive act, and indivisible from the Doctrines of Christianity. Setting up the Western Rite as a sort of Law for the New Testament--it will only serve as a distraction and for some a stumbling block.<BR/><BR/>I argued my point and for the most part I've argued it well. I'm sorry to those who I purposely antagonized. (I'm not apologizing for my Main point or for my strong language. I'm not recanting in the least. But there are things I should've said differently.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>If anyone would like to answer my question my email is folkright@gmail.com<BR/><BR/>Again my question is: If the Confessors or Luther or Paul or Jesus command that there is only One Rite, one way to worship correctly why did they not explicitly write out the details?<BR/><BR/>Each one, when they had something important to say they explicitly spelled it out--Without ANY doubt. If there is only one proper way to worship, The Western Rite, then would that seem to be a mighty failing if not one person wrote a definitive work on the "supposed" One Correct Way.<BR/><BR/><BR/>That being said I'd love to continue the conversation via email.<BR/><BR/>But I am done with this medium. Snark destroys good conversationAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-27627266462613252522009-03-14T10:14:00.000-05:002009-03-14T10:14:00.000-05:00"Anon 6:53 sadly lies to achieve victory."OK, then..."Anon 6:53 sadly lies to achieve victory."<BR/><BR/>OK, then name a lie I told. Just one. You are quick to make accusations, but slow to provide proof.<BR/><BR/>"Why, even a child could poke holes in his logic. It's laughable."<BR/><BR/>Again, please provide an example of my laughable logic. Just one. Go for it.<BR/><BR/>"Again illogic. The Confessors spelled everthing out, so why not a specific Rite???"<BR/><BR/>They did? Really? They explained every last detail of the Christian faith? The Concordia's a big book, but it would have to be a whole lot bigger to spell every last thing out. You demonstrate your ignorance of the Confessions. They weren't designed to spell everything out, but instead to summarize and defend the positions they held over against the Roman church. Since they both agreed on using the liturgy, there was no reason to spell this out.<BR/><BR/>"Yo Anon(s), man up, why don't you answer my question instead of shaming your brain by spouting illogic. Every red herring thing you post only strengthens my position."<BR/><BR/>And every ignorant accusation you make without providing proof strengthens mine.<BR/><BR/>"If they or Luther or Paul or Jesus himself thought that there was only One Rite, one way to worship correctly why did they not explicitly write out the details?"<BR/><BR/>They did. They commanded us to worship in a Christo-centric way. This is not optional according to Scripture and the Confessions. The Western Rite is the only Christo-centric worship form in existence today. The Eastern Rite is anthropocentric, because it seeks to use transcendent ritual to raise man up to the level of God. Contemporary worship is anthropocentric, because it seeks to use secular forms to touch man's emotions. The Eastern Rite and contemporary worship are by definition and by design anthropocentric. In other words, you can't make them un-anthropocentric. <BR/><BR/>Thus, if you want to obey the command of Scripture to worship in a Christo-centric way, you have no other choice but to use the Western Rite. If you were able to come up with another worship form that is equally Christo-centric as the Western Rite, then you would be free to use that form. I seriously, doubt, however, that anyone would be able to equal or surpass the rite formed by two millennia of Christian leaders and worshipers. It's the height of arrogance for anyone to think that he or his "worship team" have the ability to do better than Jesus, Paul, Augustine, Luther, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-73566386204221076022009-03-14T10:06:00.000-05:002009-03-14T10:06:00.000-05:00CD: please name a synod with a genuine quia subscr...CD: please name a synod with a genuine quia subscription to the Confessions. By that I mean, they believe, teach, confess, and practice accordingly. I am drawing nothing but blanks on that score.<BR/><BR/>B. SpokeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com