tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post7344706452587404432..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: Making a stronger and clearer Confessional stand ?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-21649434942198767532009-03-23T16:21:00.000-05:002009-03-23T16:21:00.000-05:00Thank you so much for this eye-opening blog!Please...Thank you so much for this eye-opening blog!<BR/><BR/>Please tell me more about this church calendar that the Bible commands us to use. I am afraid that our church doesn't use it. We didn't even have a service at our church on Christmas Day, or on Epiphany Day. I want to worship at a church that worships on all the same days that Jesus and Martin Luther worshipped on. <BR/><BR/>Thank you again for all your hard work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-82788214114958185432009-03-23T13:27:00.000-05:002009-03-23T13:27:00.000-05:00http://www.bookofconcord.org/http://www.bookofconcord.org/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-67769677441036222602009-03-23T11:14:00.000-05:002009-03-23T11:14:00.000-05:00Anon 8:43PM.That is an interesting statement. Cou...Anon 8:43PM.<BR/>That is an interesting statement. Could you lay out some specifics? I was confirmed into WELS as an adult and I would have no way of knowing if WELS was confessional except the pastor told me so and I believed him. So if WELS is not confessional where should I be looking for a confessional Lutheran church.<BR/>Thank-you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-47475422448633439862009-03-22T23:07:00.000-05:002009-03-22T23:07:00.000-05:00I view the statistics this way. The Bible speaks o...I view the statistics this way. The Bible speaks of "strengthening our stakes and lengthening our cords," which has been understood is nurture (of our members) and outreach (to the unchurched and those seeking the truth). In my ministry as a WELS, I have tried to keep a solid balance between the two, striving for give half my time and effort to each of them. Even in years when up to a third of our congregation moved away, we were always able to "make up the losses" through law and gospel outreach - in a program led by the pastor and supported wholeheartedly by the congregation.<BR/>This was true both in larger congregations and a smaller one, both in cities and in smaller towns. There is no such thing as a "maintenance ministry." Every field is a mission field. Farmers who don't work their fields, plant their seed, and water their crops will not expect God to give an increase. I believe that the statistics reflect a synod which has not reached in to its absent (from worship) members for too long and which spends a disproportionate amount of time on nurture at the expense of outreach.<BR/>What percentage of time do we spend "off campus" and with our members and potential members? We are shepherds (pastors), not executives. Read the Gospels and learn from the Master. They are the best "church growth" guide available. In fact, Jesus' example is church growth 101. It's also the graduate course. <BR/><BR/>PS. I saw a cartoon once. The scene is a busy Christian book store. The caption was, "It is amazing how much money Christians will spend on books, just to get out of reading the Bible."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-78710097868022213042009-03-19T20:43:00.000-05:002009-03-19T20:43:00.000-05:00The assumption that the battle in the wels is betw...The assumption that the battle in the wels is between church growthers and confessionalists is laughable. The wels has never been confessional, nor ever will be. It's a battle between liberal and conservative Presbyterians who happen to have "Lutheran" on their church signs (at least most of them).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-37925445700182710332009-03-18T10:47:00.000-05:002009-03-18T10:47:00.000-05:00I left the WELS because Holy Trinity Lutheran Chur...I left the WELS because Holy Trinity Lutheran Church, Des Moines, WA defends and tolerates false doctrine and practice.<BR/><BR/>UOJ is neither Biblical nor Confessional. It is a man made doctrine from what most see as a 'thought' of Scripture. It's a perversion of what it means to be justified and of the Holy Spirits faith. The contradictions, lies and perversions can be seen in the WELS defense of UOJ in Bailing Waters' WELS WOES discussion and in the WELS confession of UOJ in the Becker and Buchholz essays.<BR/><BR/>I would be glad to discuss this again if John creates another topic. Otherwise please try to stay focused on the topic at hand.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>Brett MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-74028938033917568472009-03-18T08:45:00.000-05:002009-03-18T08:45:00.000-05:00So Brett: Were you kicked out for denying the bibl...So Brett: Were you kicked out for denying the biblical and confessional Lutheran truth of universal justification?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-32834534314244961392009-03-17T22:20:00.000-05:002009-03-17T22:20:00.000-05:00JK,Out of curiosity, how would you distinguish bet...JK,<BR/><BR/>Out of curiosity, how would you distinguish between a legalistic and non-legalistic interpretation of the Confessions?<BR/><BR/><B>Freddy Finkelstein</B>Freddy Finkelsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15594126750060699424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-50715924983203475372009-03-17T20:33:00.000-05:002009-03-17T20:33:00.000-05:00Anon 612,I get that. I'm not an idiot. The probl...Anon 612,<BR/><BR/>I get that. I'm not an idiot. The problem is the interpretations (legalists) of the Confessions is what I have problems with.<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-85327600216537133102009-03-17T20:32:00.000-05:002009-03-17T20:32:00.000-05:00The WELS can make not only a clearer Confessional ...The WELS can make not only a clearer Confessional statement but the one true Confessional statement by only being concerned with faithfully teaching the pure doctrine of Scripture. When tempted to figure out why people leave, why they attend or why they won't attend the WELS should do nothing but to confirm that what is being taught is the full and complete Word of God. If what is being taught is in accord with Scripture then it's in accord with the Lutheran Confessions. If what is being taught is in accord with the Lutheran Confessions then it's in accord with Scripture. Faithful teaching needs to be commended, supported and promoted. Failure to teach according to either is a failure to uphold both and WELS pastorate and laymen need to ensure the error is corrected. If public then corrected publicly. If private then privately. Reprove, rebuke and instruct. The true Word and Lutheran Confessions need to be taught to WELS congregations in order to help them put on the full Armor of Christ. False teaching and false teachers should be pointed out and Scripture and the Confessions applied to teach the congregations why they are false and help them learn to discern between true and false doctrines and practice.<BR/><BR/>JK, I was ELS and WELS. By the grace of God I now have no synodical affiliation.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>Brett MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-47333350118957083912009-03-17T19:51:00.000-05:002009-03-17T19:51:00.000-05:00Pastor,This comment actually belongs in another ca...Pastor,<BR/><BR/>This comment actually belongs in another category....<BR/><BR/>On the current WELS internet site, there is an article regarding the continuing decline in the enrollment in WELS elementary schools. The link is posted below.<BR/><BR/><BR/>http://together.wels.net/<BR/><BR/><BR/>Here is my question to you and the other users of this blog...<BR/><BR/>Over the past several years I have met several WELS families who, while financially able, prefer to homeschool their children rather than send them to the local WELS school.<BR/><BR/>Why is this, and is this at least partly responsible for the decline in WELS grade schools? I know it probably also has a lot to do with the lower birth rate among white families in general (which compose the majority of the WELS population).<BR/><BR/>Does anyone care to comment on what the short comings of WELS grade schools might be? One family I talked to, who actually send their children to a public school (although it is in a very nice section of town), said our local WELS school was too much like a one room school house, with multiple grades being taught by a single teacher.<BR/><BR/>Can someone else share their perception or experience with their local WELS grade schools?<BR/><BR/>Gods Blessings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-55291252936630222492009-03-17T18:54:00.000-05:002009-03-17T18:54:00.000-05:00About the numbers:There can be a lot of reasons wh...About the numbers:<BR/><BR/>There can be a lot of reasons why there are a decline in numbers:<BR/><BR/>--laziness by Pastors and laity<BR/>--cold-heartedness by Pastors and laity<BR/>--people who are the soil the seed feel on, believed for a time, then fell away. In fact, I would argue that a big part of the problem is that we have many back-door losses. If you think that is caused by the liturgy you better evaluate your theology.<BR/>--There are churches that are growing--from the very traditional to the very contemporary. <BR/><BR/>To summarize, we are bringing people in through the front door, but we need to do better at regaining the straying. That will take a lot of work that we are not currently always undertaking. If we took regaining the straying as intently as outreach we might be getting somewhere.<BR/><BR/>As far as the school numbers go: <BR/>-It could be because our members are simply having less children. -It could also be because schools have closed and there is no other LDS close enough to go to.<BR/>-It could also be because some of our schools stink at the academic side of things and they are not striving for excellence.<BR/><BR/>There could be a lot of reasons for all of this--but its a lot more complex than most people seem to make it out to be.<BR/><BR/>But blaming the liturgy or being too tied up in your "tribe" (which in our case means preaching and teaching the truth in accord with the Lutheran Confessions)or rejecting outside false teachers and their often false assumptions about the sinful state of man and how we can affect conversions and spiritual growth by our methodolgy or by blaming the coming New Age World Order are casting blame in the wrong place.<BR/><BR/>A good place to start? Not by pointing the finger but by looking in the mirror. IMHO, There doesn't seem to be enough of <BR/>that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-92093200810288702572009-03-17T18:12:00.000-05:002009-03-17T18:12:00.000-05:00JK - ALL WELS congregations, pastors and members h...JK - ALL WELS congregations, pastors and members have a quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions.<BR/>This is the Constitution of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod and ALL its member congregations:<BR/><BR/>Article II<BR/>CONFESSION OF FAITH<BR/>Section 1. The synod accepts the canonical books of the Old and New Testament as the divinely<BR/>inspired and inerrant Word of God and submits to this Word of God as the only infallible<BR/>authority in all matters of doctrine, faith, and life.<BR/><BR/>Section 2. The synod also accepts the confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church embodied in the<BR/>Book of Concord of 1580, NOT INSOFAR AS, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE A CORRECT PRESENTATION AND EXPOSITION OF THE PURE DOCTRINE OF THE PURE DOCTRINE OF THE WORD OF GOD.<BR/><BR/>If your congregation is a member of WELS, your pastor and your congregation have a quia subscription.<BR/><BR/>If you do not have a quia subscription then there needs to be a division.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-39951412439583749782009-03-17T16:14:00.000-05:002009-03-17T16:14:00.000-05:00Thank you for the comments on the stats. I would ...Thank you for the comments on the stats. I would like a few thoughts on the school enrollment decline. If the enrollment declined at 10%, does this beg of crisis? There has been a lot of criticism toward voucher schools and charter schools, yet it feels like they are growing. What are the implications for the sharp decline...does this influence whether we need MLS....do we need to expect better results from the area Lutheran high schools for called workers in the future...what are the implactions for area high schools with this sharp decline? Thank you for your postings in reponse to my earlier questions and the civility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-2228250063178668342009-03-17T13:09:00.000-05:002009-03-17T13:09:00.000-05:00"When you label as legalists all those with a quia..."When you label as legalists all those with a quia subscription to the Confessions, you show disdain for the Confessions."<BR/><BR/>What irony. <BR/><BR/>I never labelled all those with a quia subsription as legalists. Only those who are legalists. Why is it so hard to make these separations? I can see why you have trouble separating music style now. Will you be telling me now that sin can not be separated from the sinner? Ugh!<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-40513669392754736932009-03-17T11:39:00.000-05:002009-03-17T11:39:00.000-05:00No, they are not excuses! If you're a pastor in a ...No, they are not excuses! If you're a pastor in a small rural town of 200 and no one new has moved in in ten years, you're the only church in town and you already are on a first name basis with everyone who lives there, who is the outreach going to touch? Yes, you will share your Lord's Word whenever you have the opportunity, and that will probably happen on a daily basis. Will it register in numerical growth in the congregation? Probably not. But in situations like this the congregation will do their outreach and mission work through their offerings for home and world missions than any other way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-58692276424741031062009-03-17T10:52:00.000-05:002009-03-17T10:52:00.000-05:00"Brett, I harbor no disdain for the Confessions. M..."Brett, I harbor no disdain for the Confessions. My disdain is for the legalists in our midst."<BR/><BR/>When you label as legalists all those with a quia subscription to the Confessions, you show disdain for the Confessions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-26362922605719639932009-03-17T09:20:00.000-05:002009-03-17T09:20:00.000-05:00Brett, I harbor no disdain for the Confessions. M...Brett, I harbor no disdain for the Confessions. My disdain is for the legalists in our midst. I'm sorry, but I missed your affiliation. Are you even WELS?<BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-25183063891403899872009-03-17T08:08:00.000-05:002009-03-17T08:08:00.000-05:00The economy in Michigan is in the dumper? Small to...The economy in Michigan is in the dumper? Small town, rural Midwestern synod? These are not valid excuses. They are just excuses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-46236020157415485802009-03-17T07:40:00.000-05:002009-03-17T07:40:00.000-05:00Long time reader, first time poster. I have a few ...Long time reader, first time poster. I have a few thoughts here I'd like to share.<BR/><BR/>Instead of concerning ourselves with what pastors would say about a numerically shrinking church, why don't worry about what Scripture says:<BR/><BR/>II Timothy 4:3-4: For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to says what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myth.<BR/><BR/>Matthew 24:12 [Jesus said]: "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold."<BR/><BR/>Luke 18:8b: [Jesus said]: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"<BR/><BR/>Instead of pulling our hair out over declining numbers and implicitly (or even explicitly) blaming pastors' lack of evangelism work for the decline, why don't we listen to what God's Word says? We are in the Last Days. This is going to happen, despite our best efforts. Should we be giving our best effort? Of course. But we should not lose heart when numbers decline.<BR/><BR/>A couple more points: Isn't every member in our synod supposed to be doing evangelism themselves? Don't laypeople far outnumber pastors? Then why do laypeople so quickly point their finger at pastors for the decline? "Because the pastor's the leader, that's why!" you'll say. "Because our congregation has taken on our pastor's lazy personality!" you'll say. I say: You're making excuses, the same way lots of pastors do for their lack of effort in evangelism. The irony is so overwhelming I can barely go on typing. Stop blaming pastors and making excuses for YOUR OWN failure and find a friend to tell about Jesus. <BR/><BR/>Finally: I cringe when I watch Church and Change fulfill Paul's prophecy in II Timothy. We invite false teachers in. We pay them. We sit at their feet. We give them standing ovations at the end of the heresy session. "But don't worry, they're not mentoring us. Don't worry, we're not supporting their ideas or ministries with our dollars. It's a non-worship setting." Give me a break. Since when is worship the only way to express fellowship? <BR/><BR/>What does this have to do with a more confessional stand, you ask? Declining numbers are often used as a "crisis excuse" for resorting to "outside mentoring." "After all, we have to do SOMETHING, right?" How about this for a start: Return to Scripture first and see what Jesus and St. Paul say about our current situation, and take heart. Use the Bible's faithful witness, the Confessions, to reinforce these truths. And for goodness sake let's not pull our hair out and let it fall on our ears, causing them to itch. If we already have, let's scratch the itch with God's Word, not Ed Setzer. That will not help us "solve this problem." Only a return to Scripture and their faithful witness, the Confessions, will. They will give us perspective, the proper attitude, and the only true power availabe to evangelize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-12446244294125234842009-03-16T22:31:00.000-05:002009-03-16T22:31:00.000-05:00What's there to say? You can make stats say anythi...What's there to say? You can make stats say anything you want. Some will say it's proof our churches aren't doing enough outreach and evangelism. But many (a majority?) of our congregations are in small towns or rural settings. Many are in Michigan where the economy is in the dumper and I'm sure people are moving out. I know of some churches in large cities that are growing. In spite of our spread into the West and Sunbelt the past few decades, aren't we still a largely small town, rural Midwestern synod? When we consider demographic changes in our country, the gradual decline in numbers shouldn't surprise anyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-41710405096226872752009-03-16T21:51:00.000-05:002009-03-16T21:51:00.000-05:00"Could some of the called workers here comment on ..."Could some of the called workers here comment on the stats announced in the Together newsletter today? What should we take from these numbers? Thank you."<BR/><BR/>I don't think there's much at all to take from the stats. The WELS is shrinking slowly, as is every other Christian denomination in the US. (Hmm, didn't Jesus saying something about people falling away in the end times?) Actually, the WELS is shrinking much more slowly than almost all other denominations.<BR/><BR/>If you buy into the Church Growth heresy, you will try to use these numbers to justify further apostasy, saying, "Well, this might not be Biblical, but we have to do something to make the church grow!"<BR/><BR/>If you trust in God's Word, you will take comfort in knowing that God's Word accomplishes what he wishes, when he wishes, and thus statistics are almost completely meaningless in God's Kingdom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-12787956758688303892009-03-16T20:19:00.000-05:002009-03-16T20:19:00.000-05:00Could some of the called workers here comment on t...Could some of the called workers here comment on the stats announced in the Together newsletter today? What should we take from these numbers? Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-3740697654289366572009-03-16T20:15:00.000-05:002009-03-16T20:15:00.000-05:00Brett can comment if he can add to the discussion ...Brett can comment if he can add to the discussion on how the WELS might make a clearer Confessional statement.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-70959080207177510032009-03-16T19:43:00.000-05:002009-03-16T19:43:00.000-05:00Brett - John asked you not to comment.Brett - John asked you not to comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com