tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post3787081291109438692..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: U.S. News and World Report -- A Return to TraditionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-82079795237108983952007-12-24T13:10:00.000-06:002007-12-24T13:10:00.000-06:00I for one am sick of the mega churches and prefer ...I for one am sick of the mega churches and prefer more of a liturgical style. Will the mega churches disappear even if their theology is wrong in the Lutheran church? No. Do you know why? They bring in money. I guess it doesnt matter if they are watered down or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-61104859442228041252007-12-24T12:56:00.000-06:002007-12-24T12:56:00.000-06:00Show me a synod that is 100% correct in all of it'...Show me a synod that is 100% correct in all of it's teachings. Is it the WELS? The LCMS? The ELCA (lol)? While all presume to be correct, they are all mistaken. Are we correct in showing our brothers and sisters the errors in their ways? Sure we are, and we are responsible in doing so. Each synod has obvious errors. I personally believe that WELS is closest to being correct (and NO, I do not go to or do not attend a WELS church). I am very concerned about the state of the LCMS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-51480940915980930612007-12-21T09:37:00.000-06:002007-12-21T09:37:00.000-06:00I actually do know what the Lutheran church teache...I actually do know what the Lutheran church teaches and it is the arrogance like the post above me that makes me so very sad. The arrogance is actually a barrier for me. Instead of reaching out to one another in love, we cruelly condemn and mock. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the brother/sisterly love. Your work in the kingdom is duly noted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-17608748892759647772007-12-21T06:20:00.000-06:002007-12-21T06:20:00.000-06:00Well, there you go. Either agree with the WELS wi...Well, there you go. Either agree with the WELS with no criticisms or questions or leave.<BR/><BR/>Leaving looks pretty pleasant compared to staying with people who have no idea what the Lutheran church teaches or why, like the Anonymous at 10:50.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-48330974103908851092007-12-20T22:50:00.000-06:002007-12-20T22:50:00.000-06:00Look, Mr./Ms. Bye, I'm actually pretty well aware ...Look, Mr./Ms. Bye, I'm actually pretty well aware of what is or isn't going on. As for the egos and whatnot--yeah, first hand experience that as well. <BR/><BR/>However, I don't have an issue with women communing women. I don't have an issue with blended worship. I'm not even sure I believe women should not vote. I'm not a fan of contemporary worship, but I'm not a fan of extreme high church worship either. I don't like to lean towards the Evangelical model, but I don't like to lean towards a Catholic/Anglican model of worship/church gov't either. I could go on, but I will stop there.<BR/><BR/>You know if you don't like the WELS, you can join the breakoff of the ELS (the ACLC) or ELDoNA (break off of the LCMS). Both the ACLC and the ELDoNA are in fellowship via the Orthodox Lutheran Confessional Conference (OLCC).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-47699190447960083882007-12-20T19:41:00.000-06:002007-12-20T19:41:00.000-06:00"I want an official, voted on WELS document to pro..."I want an official, voted on WELS document to prove the charges that have been brought forth."<BR/><BR/>I told you what I know based on what I've seen, read, and been told. Ask your pastor or D.P. if you don't believe me. If you ask the same questions I did, you'll probably get the same answers. This issue has been thoroughly discussed here already. Look at some of the older threads. You'll see WELS people defending what you deny. It isn't a matter of seeing an official, signed and sealed WELS statement, whatever that means. It is about looking at the WELS doctrinal statements and what the theologians in that synod say they mean. I'm glad you don't believe that women may commune other women. Your sem profs and COP do. Maybe you can change that. But I'll warn you, others that have publicly brought this up have not been treated well. <BR/><BR/>ByeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-55950386291405956142007-12-20T19:26:00.000-06:002007-12-20T19:26:00.000-06:00"Would you rather live in a country where stealing..."Would you rather live in a country where stealing was legal but only happened once or twice in isolated incidents or in a country where stealing was illegal but happened fairly frequently?"<BR/><BR/>Sadly, this is more than a hypthetical for a lot of Lutherans. If there was a locality that did enforce the law, I'd rather live in the country where thievery is outlawed. I guess it is all about how much your conscience will allow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-15542460946259829582007-12-20T19:10:00.000-06:002007-12-20T19:10:00.000-06:00"Only in the same way thiefs who don't get prosecu..."Only in the same way thiefs who don't get prosecuted are "allowed" to steal. But that doesn't mean the penal code allows stealing."<BR/><BR/>I can say with confidence that this happens far more frequently in the LCMS than in the WELS. Which brings up an interesting question: Would you rather live in a country where stealing was legal but only happened once or twice in isolated incidents or in a country where stealing was illegal but happened fairly frequently?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-60289704841216767552007-12-20T19:00:00.000-06:002007-12-20T19:00:00.000-06:00Also, if you've seen it--then I want to know where...Also, if you've seen it--then I want to know where and when. I am sick to death of all these abstract references to examples--but no names, times or places are provided. <BR/><BR/>I mean, I could get on here and say I saw x,y, or z...who's to say I'm telling the truth? Why would you trust me? Especially if I'm not even willing to give you my name?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-26760605761343742932007-12-20T18:57:00.000-06:002007-12-20T18:57:00.000-06:00News Flash, the WELS Q&A is NOT official church do...News Flash, the WELS Q&A is NOT official church doctrine. It's an individual person's pov. <BR/><BR/>I want an official, voted on WELS document to prove the charges that have been brought forth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-20179681545981400632007-12-20T18:39:00.000-06:002007-12-20T18:39:00.000-06:00"Umm, if you've seen it done, and no disciplinary ..."Umm, if you've seen it done, and no disciplinary action was carried out against that pastor, then wouldn't it be considered "allowed" in the LCMS too?"<BR/><BR/>Only in the same way thiefs who don't get prosecuted are "allowed" to steal. But that doesn't mean the penal code allows stealing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-25996507587097566712007-12-20T17:35:00.000-06:002007-12-20T17:35:00.000-06:00"(although, I have seen this done in the LCMS by p..."(although, I have seen this done in the LCMS by pastors that hold a more WELSian view of the Church and Ministry)"<BR/><BR/>Umm, if you've seen it done, and no disciplinary action was carried out against that pastor, then wouldn't it be considered "allowed" in the LCMS too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-18800129414675332382007-12-20T15:54:00.000-06:002007-12-20T15:54:00.000-06:00"Also, women reading Scripture is also not endorse..."Also, women reading Scripture is also not endorsed formally...prove it with a WELS doctrinal statement."<BR/><BR/>I didn't say "endorsed formally." I said allowed. WELS doctrine on the Ministry allows women to read scripture lessons.<BR/><BR/>Here is the response from a <A HREF="http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=30&cuItem_itemID=9026" REL="nofollow">WELS Q&A</A> on this issue: <BR/><BR/>"An article in the 1981 Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly (an exegesis of 1 Co 14:33b ff.) points out that the matter of women being silent in the church is not the principle but an application of the principle to the unique type of worship service that existed in Corinth. The principle is that a woman is not to assume authority over a man. <BR/><BR/>This principle is not being denied by saying that a woman could serve as a lector. The reading of a Scripture passage with men present is not in and of itself assuming authority over the men. However, reading from the front of the church with a posture and tone of voice that would signal a woman's attitude of lording it over others would be a violation of this principle. <BR/><BR/>So though it may be technically possible for a woman to read the Scriptures in a worship service without violating her God-given role, there are a number of other factors that need to be carefully considered before this is done. The question that brought this matter up asked whether in and of itself reading the Scripture lessons in church would be a sin for a woman. But since it is not usually an "in and of itself" matter, it would be a practice that involves a number of other important issues that need to be addressed before it is done."<BR/><BR/>In conclusion, WELS says there is nothing techinically wrong with it. It just isn't wise. LCMS and ELS doctrine does not allow this (although, I have seen this done in the LCMS by pastors that hold a more WELSian view of the Church and Ministry).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-49969960081411477542007-12-20T15:26:00.000-06:002007-12-20T15:26:00.000-06:00"Where is the "doctrine" that say women can commun..."Where is the "doctrine" that say women can commune women?"<BR/><BR/>Here you go:<BR/><BR/>"Since the Bible does not assign specific duties to the pastor, WELS approaches the matter of women communing women from Scripture's man and women role relationship principle. WELS doctrinal statements on the role of man and woman say that a woman may have any part in public ministry that does not assume teaching authority over a man. That, of course, would include women communing women. WELS has had only two instances of women communing women, and our Conference of Presidents has since issued an indefinite moratorium on such practice to keep from offending our brothers until the matter is mutually resolved. WELS does not consider women who lawfully assume certain duties of the pastoral office to be pastors, does not call them pastors, and does not intend to call them pastors. The word pastor has the traditional meaning of exercising authority over both men and women and would be an inappropriate title for women who minister only to women."<BR/><BR/>-WELS Q&A referencing WELS Doctrinal Statement and COP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-49348958467384771462007-12-20T14:18:00.000-06:002007-12-20T14:18:00.000-06:00Where is the "doctrine" that say women can commune...Where is the "doctrine" that say women can commune women? Do you official WELS document proving that it is official WELS doctrine?<BR/><BR/>Until you can provide that, the the poster you quoted as being "wrong" is actually right. <BR/><BR/>Also, women reading Scripture is also not endorsed formally...prove it with a WELS doctrinal statement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-14261312706077368382007-12-20T11:06:00.000-06:002007-12-20T11:06:00.000-06:00"The problem isn't WELS doctrine, it's nuts who ig..."The problem isn't WELS doctrine, it's nuts who ignore doctrine and do whatever they want."<BR/><BR/>Well, that is where we disagree. I can't confess a doctrine that allows women to commune other women or read scripture lessons, even if in practice that doesn't happen often.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-15517281652466070322007-12-20T10:57:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:57:00.000-06:00"Of course, the irony is, in the LCMS, though thie..."Of course, the irony is, in the LCMS, though thier doctrine does not allow these things, it is probably seen more often. "<BR/><BR/>I agree. But since that's true, how can you even make the correlation between WELS doctrine and issues of practice. If certain practices are more prevalent in Missouri, which doesn't have those doctrines, then there can't be a correlation between the two. The problem isn't WELS doctrine, it's nuts who ignore doctrine and do whatever they want.<BR/><BR/>"But when is the last time you saw someone in the LCMS puff out their chest for being unified in doctrine and practice? That is the difference."<BR/><BR/>I don't get it. People in the LCMS have resigned themselves to the fact that their is division and heresy in their synod, and somehow that's better?<BR/><BR/>And besides, saying that WELS people "puff out their chest[s]" about unity in doctrine and practice is an old and unfair stereotype. I don't think anyone is doing such things these days (if they ever did). Groups like C&C and IIW have made it pretty clear that such unity doesn't exist.<BR/><BR/>Also, if ever there were a Lutheran church body that puffed out its chest it was Missouri in the days of Walther and Pieper. They absolutely tore Wisconsin to shreds without mercy in their writing during the decades when Wisconsin was struggling to leave its roots in pietism. I strongly believe that if Missouri had been more brotherly in their admonitions, Wisconsin, to this very day, would have been more willing to examine more deeply some of it pietistic roots. So if we want to trace the development of the "puffed chests" you have to start with Missouri. And if you want to trace the so-called "defensiveness" of Wisconsin, you have to realize why the WELS had to be so defensive in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-86819901605659913762007-12-20T10:41:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:41:00.000-06:00Anon @ 10:01, "Yet at the same time, every issue w...Anon @ 10:01, <BR/><BR/>"Yet at the same time, every issue with the WELS that gets brought up here is taken as a serious sign of deep, systemic problems in the WELS." <BR/><BR/>There is a distinction that you are not seeing. The WELS docrine allows the sort of errors being discussed on here--women communing women, women reading scripture in the service, etc. Of course, the irony is, in the LCMS, though thier doctrine does not allow these things, it is probably seen more often. <BR/><BR/>But when is the last time you saw someone in the LCMS puff out their chest for being unified in doctrine and practice? That is the difference. Sure there are nuts in the LCMS, but there are just as many openly and vocally opposed to the nuts. What happens when you complain about the nuts in the WELS? You get accused of causing division and shown the door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-70804227867037159662007-12-20T10:33:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:33:00.000-06:00I'm not a fan of BW really and its pov on many iss...I'm not a fan of BW really and its pov on many issues. However, the LCMS video of the pastor pretending to be Jesus was beyond stupid. As far as reaching an unbelieving crowd, I don't even see how that is possible really. I could see a lot of people laughing at it, but honestly seeing Jesus as God rather than some crazy idiot...umm, no. <BR/><BR/>I'm not high, high church. I'm not a fan of contemporary worship. I hate slick campaigns and stupid videos that aren't worth much beyond the junk pile. I am just not sure were many of us belong. It seems like there are 2 polorazied ends of the spectrum when what is sorely needed is middle ground.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-43062935211677190692007-12-20T10:29:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:29:00.000-06:00Anon.I could care less about the nuts. I care abou...Anon.<BR/><BR/>I could care less about the nuts. I care about doctrine, and that is where we must always begin. The nuts will always be there. It seems that too often on this blog when doctrinal issues of the WS are raised invariably someone does what you did. <BR/><BR/>As for your contention that if something like that happened in the WELS the guy would be immediately removed - you tell me - is preaching a sermon without the Gospel, and therefore a confusion of law and Gospel and denial of the same or a sermon plagiarized or a sermon in which the pastor tells an outright lie (and these reported to their superiors who did nothing) any different than a man praying in the name of Jesus alongside of some pagans? If so, they why haven't all the WS pastors who have preached such sermons not been removed faster than you can say "Come to the WELS." (Evidence on hand and waiting, if necessary). The point being, both the WS and the LCMS can be blind to their own errorists and I would suggest stone throwing be limited to doctrinal issues because one nutcase can be called and raised by another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-82787915744473933002007-12-20T10:01:00.000-06:002007-12-20T10:01:00.000-06:00"Could you please tell me how this silliness relat..."Could you please tell me how this silliness relates to or results from the view that AC V speaks of the Office of the Holy Ministry?"<BR/><BR/>It doesn't. He's just a lone nut who makes everyone in the LCMS look bad. I don't actually think there's a connection between the LCMS's doctrine and this guy.<BR/><BR/>But that's my point. Every issue with the LCMS raised here is always brushed off with "Yeah, we have problems, so what?" Yet at the same time, every issue with the WELS that gets brought up here is taken as a serious sign of deep, systemic problems in the WELS. Can't the WELS just have its lone nuts too? (And that's exactly how most people in the WELS look at guys like Parlow, et. al.) <BR/><BR/>I just wanted to point out that double standard. LCMS problems are always seen as minimal and isolated. WELS problems are always seen as huge and systemic.<BR/><BR/>If anything, the reverse is true. That fact that the guy who prayed at Yankee Stadium wasn't removed from the LCMS demonstrates systemic, institutional problems in the LCMS. If that had happened in the WELS, the pastor would have been out of the WELS quicker than you can say, "Allah is God."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-42166454921474219102007-12-20T09:53:00.000-06:002007-12-20T09:53:00.000-06:00Note the comments on youtube. The critical ones a...Note the comments on youtube. The critical ones are from lcms pastors and laypeople. I know some of them. Go to Fr. Larry Beane's excellent blog for another perspective on the lcms. And please answer anon@9:29's question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-33021952846222566012007-12-20T09:29:00.000-06:002007-12-20T09:29:00.000-06:00Anon on Youtube,Fascinating. Could you please tell...Anon on Youtube,<BR/><BR/>Fascinating. Could you please tell me how this silliness relates to or results from the view that AC V speaks of the Office of the Holy Ministry? I'd be interested in your response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-20637157804294403912007-12-20T09:15:00.000-06:002007-12-20T09:15:00.000-06:00So you won't defend the WELS, but you'll start cri...So you won't defend the WELS, but you'll start criticizing the LCMS, which no one here has claimed is devoid of problems? As a friend recently said, it's time to start treating blind WELS members like the anonymouses above as weaker brothers. They admit no faults and either do not know or cannot say why they believe and do as they do.<BR/><BR/>LLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-34586341130439465702007-12-20T07:43:00.000-06:002007-12-20T07:43:00.000-06:00For those who think that the WELS has problems, th...For those who think that the WELS has problems, this is a pastor from the LCMS:<BR/><BR/>www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nj0Rx2uEZA<BR/><BR/>John, we need a new topic to discuss how the flawed LCMS doctrine of Church and Ministry has created blasphemous pastors like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com