tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post3728107604887057545..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: Church Growth theology - help meUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-34567177860246252132007-08-30T18:06:00.000-05:002007-08-30T18:06:00.000-05:00"Note that Paul's methods were far different than ..."Note that Paul's methods were far different than ours. He even went into heathen Greek temples to preach about the true God (see Acts 17)."<BR/><BR/>That is exactly right--he went to them. What happens in the Divine Service? They come to us. Implementing more "visitor friendly" practices in the Divine Serivce shows a lack of confidence in the Holy Spirit and the means of grace. It also evinces a misunderstanding of the directive to go and make disciples of all nations. The directive is to go--not stay and make the province of the believer more attractive to the unbeliever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-32093870691749010142007-08-30T17:13:00.000-05:002007-08-30T17:13:00.000-05:00I am an ELS guy and I have posted your site on to ...I am an ELS guy and I have posted your site on to my Favorites list. I am interested in what you say because the ELS always follows WELS. It's as though when the WELS has an upset stomach, the ELS burps. Your Synod tells mine to jump, and my Synod asks how high.Norman Teigenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13704523935095549165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-82071695550253883432007-08-30T16:54:00.000-05:002007-08-30T16:54:00.000-05:00"Take a look at the history of Martin Luther's hym..."Take a look at the history of Martin Luther's hymns and realize that they used melodies sung in German bars so that church members would be able to sing along."<BR/><BR/>Ugh. Apparently this old chestnut is still alive and well among WELS church growthers. It's an urban legend pure and simple. If you followed your own advice and took a look at history you would realize that.<BR/><BR/>"Bar songs" refer to Luther's practice of setting plainsong chant into metrical "bars" (i.e. measures) to make them easier to sing. It has nothing to do with the local Wittenberg tavern.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-15039570880823086222007-08-30T15:41:00.000-05:002007-08-30T15:41:00.000-05:00So...by the way soldiers of the Church Growth Move...So...by the way soldiers of the Church Growth Movement employ "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some" should I, a man, start romancing men so that I can evangelize to homosexuals? Seems to me the best way to become all things to all people is to preach the Law and Gospel. What more is there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-85176789239894224092007-08-30T08:43:00.000-05:002007-08-30T08:43:00.000-05:001 Cor 9 (NIV) 19Though I am free and belong to no...1 Cor 9 (NIV) 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. <BR/><BR/>Note that Paul's methods were far different than ours. He even went into heathen Greek temples to preach about the true God (see Acts 17).<BR/><BR/>I will caution you again agaist confusing worship styles with doctrine. I still fail to see how our practice and methods are becoming unscriptural. You have pointed to some sermons which may have been out of focus, but that is individual preachers who need to be refocussed and does not represent unscriptural practice nor methods in synod as a whole. Please give examples of what methods are unscriptural.<BR/><BR/>It is more than permissable to use guitar in place of piano in worship services-- it is very beneficial for many. Reread psalm 150. Take a look at the history of Martin Luther's hymns and realize that they used melodies sung in German bars so that church members would be able to sing along.<BR/><BR/>Also, you say this church growth says "We need to make the believer feel comfortable and happy" If we are preaching the gospel and using the sacraments often, won't we be happy? If the hope of heaven does not make us happy, nothing will. Our messages should be filled with the happiness and hope found in Jesus. Our worshippers should leave church smiling whether we use contemporary or ancient music. God wants his children to be happy.<BR/><BR/>Please share what methods are unscriptural (unless you mean that these preaching methods by a few are the problem. If that is the case, please let me know as well.).<BR/><BR/>Also, your poll could use some explanation. What does LPS have to do with church growth? I would also recommend an "other". Finally, who has authority to disband Church and Change? And why not disband all such groups whatever their positions are (Church and Change, Issues in WELS, etc.).<BR/><BR/>Feel free to post this comment. Please, at least, respond to specific methods, practice, etc. that are unscriptural as well as my other points.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com