tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post3345711282751451207..comments2023-04-26T04:36:47.052-05:00Comments on Bailing Water: Calling all Confessional PastorsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-37376643106841980752009-04-17T07:56:00.000-05:002009-04-17T07:56:00.000-05:00The real issue which is the basis of all the confu...The real issue which is the basis of all the confusion in the C&C matter and the implications that it is leaving, is that we have WELS pastors who are "sitting at the feet of mockers" who do not have the interests of the proper administration of Word and Sacrament in mind. We have lay people who are being trained by heterodox teachers who claim that their brand is generic and it can be applied to any stripe of theology. We have churches that are using video clips and church "helps"? being offered and produced by Willow Creek. We are having women write "liturgies" (read "teaching") for contempory services that are being used and C&C Enthusiast churches. <br /><br />It goes on and on. We have been duped, just like Eve was, into believing that God has not given us all we need. We doubt that our Lutheran fathers actually had it right. We doubt, yes ignore, Christ's words below that tell of the trials, the distain and lack of glory that will be encountered. <br /><br />The thing is that instead of doing what Christ commanded in:<br /><br /> Luke 9:5 (King James Version)<br /><br /> 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.<br /><br /> or for those who need, <br />Luke 9 (Contemporary English Version)<br /><br /> 5 If people won't welcome you, leave the town and shake the dust from your feet [a] as a warning to them." 6The apostles left and went from village to village, telling the good news and healing people everywhere. <br /> <br />...we are being told,let's figure out a way to make people like us and want us and thereby ignore the instructions given. Yes, let us bait them. So in the end we can do it our way.................but at what cost? <br /><br />PeaceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-59718472377033821442009-03-22T18:47:00.000-05:002009-03-22T18:47:00.000-05:00Just a couple thoughts from a WELS pastor. One is ...Just a couple thoughts from a WELS pastor. One is that we can cover a lot of territory, without looking to the Church Crowth Movement, by simply "doing out best with the resources we have" in every area --preaching, worship, evangelism, maintaining our property, responding to our visitors and contacts, assimilation, etc. The other is that, instead of distinguishing between traditional and contemporary worship on this level, we might talk about distinguishing between Lutheran and Reformed worship (with Reformed worship styles and substance possibly coming into the WELS). I think that is the crux of the matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-3400091906679214582009-02-23T01:55:00.000-06:002009-02-23T01:55:00.000-06:00The problem is that "contemporary" by definition i...The problem is that "contemporary" by definition is a word open for interpretation. If I don't enjoy a particular tune, I can rewrite the melody to something not in modal tones. <BR/><BR/>That, in a sense, is "contemporary"<BR/><BR/>Most churches in the WELS, who are "going contemporary" are simply updating music they didn't enjoy singing. The words are still the inspired Word (Magnificat, Sanctus, etc) the music has simply been updated, as it has been many times (Lutheran Chorale was not ordained)<BR/><BR/>There are churches who have decided to be fundamentally anti-liturgical, that is a problem. But not all "contemporary" worship services can be lumped togetherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-1238406937375928972009-02-20T18:44:00.000-06:002009-02-20T18:44:00.000-06:00Here is a fairly concise explanation of the biblic...Here is a fairly concise explanation of the biblical understanding of objective vs subjective justification: <BR/><BR/>http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=45&cuItem_itemID=16304Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-10227840285928830352009-02-05T20:52:00.000-06:002009-02-05T20:52:00.000-06:00Point taken..Please all focus on Confessional Luth...Point taken..<BR/><BR/>Please all focus on Confessional Lutheranism..Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16191023241749592154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-91473503782603801882009-02-05T20:14:00.000-06:002009-02-05T20:14:00.000-06:00Moderator... can you stop the thread when it degen...Moderator... can you stop the thread when it degenerates to this point? Discussion is worthless now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-34639831116013737162009-02-05T19:11:00.000-06:002009-02-05T19:11:00.000-06:00"No, what I said was completely accurate."Nice exa..."No, what I said was completely accurate."<BR/><BR/>Nice example of Pharisaical legalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-71179346903591932362009-02-05T18:29:00.000-06:002009-02-05T18:29:00.000-06:00"It was you, not Dom, who is the phony. It was you..."It was you, not Dom, who is the phony. It was you who made the fatuous claim about numbers. Sheesh, grow up."<BR/><BR/>No, what I said was completely accurate. There are more congregations in the LCMS than in the WELS that do not have weekly communion. That's a fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-10865686245145853942009-02-05T17:20:00.000-06:002009-02-05T17:20:00.000-06:00"It's a tad phony."It was you, not Dom, who is the..."It's a tad phony."<BR/><BR/>It was you, not Dom, who is the phony. It was you who made the fatuous claim about numbers. Sheesh, grow up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-34541029355013124882009-02-05T17:16:00.000-06:002009-02-05T17:16:00.000-06:00To the one who wrote,"immediately whip out all of ...To the one who wrote,<BR/><BR/>"immediately whip out all of your figures and statistics in the very next comment."<BR/><BR/>It really isn't that hard to find these stats. I just did, it is called "Google", dummy. Google "every Sunday sacrament" and WELS or LC MS. It is not rocket science.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-11148914826061660012009-02-05T15:59:00.000-06:002009-02-05T15:59:00.000-06:00"Your arguements concerning style causing division..."Your arguements concerning style causing division in the church are assinine. Then WELS better make the rule of only one service time per week synod wide because having and 8 am and 10:30 is division. You guys are idiots."<BR/><BR/>1. If you're going to be calling other people idiots, you had better be sure you know how to spell "arguements" and "assinine".<BR/><BR/>2. Style does not exist in a vacuum. Worship style flows from theology and affects theology. If you weren't so asinine you would understand this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-24399846938226257042009-02-05T12:44:00.000-06:002009-02-05T12:44:00.000-06:00Your arguements concerning style causing division ...Your arguements concerning style causing division in the church are assinine. Then WELS better make the rule of only one service time per week synod wide because having and 8 am and 10:30 is division. You guys are idiots.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-75773433387608905522009-02-05T09:29:00.000-06:002009-02-05T09:29:00.000-06:00"My goodness, it is like junior high on this blog...."My goodness, it is like junior high on this blog. Good-bye."<BR/><BR/>Aww, Dom, are you leaving because we saw through your thinly-veiled attempt to stir up trouble and proselytize members? <BR/><BR/>Just a tip for next time: don't act like an ignorant and confused layman in your first comment and then immediately whip out all of your figures and statistics in the very next comment. It's a tad phony.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-60209014992819833002009-02-05T09:14:00.000-06:002009-02-05T09:14:00.000-06:00"Well yeah, you can make statistics say whatever y..."Well yeah, you can make statistics say whatever you want."<BR/><BR/>My goodness, it is like junior high on this blog. Good-bye.<BR/><BR/>DomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-25100216411454886792009-02-05T06:03:00.000-06:002009-02-05T06:03:00.000-06:00Webber's sermon has no true law in the sense of it...Webber's sermon has no true law in the sense of it convicting the hearers. He's railing against CG and not against sin, sin in the lives of his people. We don't need sermons like this to fight CG. We need basic law and gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-73346076665132975122009-02-04T20:50:00.000-06:002009-02-04T20:50:00.000-06:00Ugh. How does every single thread here somehow tu...Ugh. How does every single thread here somehow turn into a discussion of weekly communion? I'm not saying that it's not a valid thing to talk about, but I'm sick of talking about it here. Bailing Water has been there and done that. <BR/><BR/>(By the way, Dominic, your latest post confirms my suspicion that you aren't a humble layman with an innocent question. It's looks like you posted with an agenda, looking to stir things up.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-19825274653464765902009-02-04T19:49:00.000-06:002009-02-04T19:49:00.000-06:00Well yeah, you can make statistics say whatever yo...Well yeah, you can make statistics say whatever you want.<BR/><BR/><I>"there are even more congregations in the Missouri Synod that don't celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday."</I><BR/><BR/>Taken at face value: True.<BR/><BR/>From statistics gathered on the web:<BR/># of WELS congregations 2007: 1276<BR/># of LCMS congregations 2003: 6160<BR/><BR/>64% of LCMS churches that do not have every sunday communion: 3942 churches<BR/><BR/>95% of WELS churches that do not have every sunday communion: 1212<BR/><BR/>3942 > 1212<BR/><BR/>I do think attitudes have changed somewhat since 1995 though. But I could be wrong about that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-19897467011195602762009-02-04T18:32:00.000-06:002009-02-04T18:32:00.000-06:00I know of several WELS congregations that voted ag...I know of several WELS congregations that voted against have every Sunday communion! Unbelievable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-72861554561558861652009-02-04T18:25:00.000-06:002009-02-04T18:25:00.000-06:00Anonymous, you wrote,"there are even more congrega...Anonymous, you wrote,<BR/><BR/>"there are even more congregations in the Missouri Synod that don't celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday." <BR/><BR/>I did a little research and interestly both the LCMS and WELS did a survery in 1995 on the issue. The WELS information below came from a paper delivered to the WELS Worship conference,<BR/><BR/>"In 1995, Rev. Kenneth Wieting conducted a survey of all pastors in the LCMS. The survey was designed to learn about the current practices, trends, and attitudes within Synod concerning the frequency of celebration of the Lord's Supper... Almost 20 percent indicated that the Lord's Supper was made available in each weekly Divine Service. Many of these pastors said that this practice had taken place in the previous five years. Another 16 percent indicated that the Lord's Supper was available each week in the parish they serve but at alternating services."<BR/><BR/>"The 1995 Wisconsin Synod Survey reports that only 5% of our churches celebrate the Sacrament weekly with a large percentage of those in only one of several weekend services. Some 27% offer the Sacrament but once a month."<BR/><BR/>So, LCMS 36%, WELS 5%. Let's hope both synods have increased that. Also former President Barry had a synod wide paper encouraging the practice. Has any WELS president done so? - it would be interesting reading.<BR/><BR/>Is there anyone out there who can tell me why? <BR/><BR/>DomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-17199924303647928722009-02-04T14:55:00.000-06:002009-02-04T14:55:00.000-06:00I am a WELS member and a convert into Lutheranism ...I am a WELS member and a convert into Lutheranism like Dominic. I am also baffled that the Sacrament of Lord's Supper is offered only twice a month. No one has ever offered an answer that does not leave me even more baffled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-68161641692064733712009-02-04T12:59:00.000-06:002009-02-04T12:59:00.000-06:00Dominic, I have a sneaking suspicion that you are ...Dominic, I have a sneaking suspicion that you are feigning ignorance for the purpose of stirring up trouble, but I'll but the best construction on things and answer your question.<BR/><BR/>Yes, there are many WELS congregations that do not celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday, but there is a growing movement to change that. In the interest of fairness, though, I need to point out that there are even more congregations in the Missouri Synod that don't celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-10368842275175734892009-02-04T12:56:00.000-06:002009-02-04T12:56:00.000-06:00"At CTR we are not doing anything that goes agains..."At CTR we are not doing anything that goes against the Confessions and more importantly the Scriptures. Obviously there is nothing I'm going to say to convince you otherwise."<BR/><BR/>Well, JK, since you claim that all swearing is sinful, it's clear that CTR is not teaching the full counsel of God. Not teaching people God's Word is most definitely against Scripture and the Confessions. Perhaps if your church stopped worrying about "felt needs" and started teaching God's Word, you might have an understanding of something as basic as the Second Commandment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-24876621092398589832009-02-04T11:31:00.000-06:002009-02-04T11:31:00.000-06:00Poster #44, thank you.At CTR we are not doing anyt...Poster #44, thank you.<BR/><BR/>At CTR we are not doing anything that goes against the Confessions and more importantly the Scriptures. Obviously there is nothing I'm going to say to convince you otherwise. Shame on you for passing judgement when you haven't been to my church. You make the narrow road to Heaven a tightrope walk. See you down the road... <BR/><BR/>JKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-88827952523212652472009-02-04T10:52:00.000-06:002009-02-04T10:52:00.000-06:00In the interest of full disclosure, I am Missouri ...In the interest of full disclosure, I am Missouri Synod and new to Lutheranism.<BR/><BR/>Are there really WELS congregations that only have the Supper twice a month? Why is that? (Our church has the Supper in every service.)<BR/><BR/>DominicAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8818242304034182219.post-74586623946660000782009-02-03T16:49:00.000-06:002009-02-03T16:49:00.000-06:00Being united in practice doesn't mean that we do t...Being united in practice doesn't mean that we do things in the same way but that we put doctrine into action. <BR/><BR/>Let's use the Lord's Supper as a case in point. WELS Churches believe from the Bible that in the Sacrament of Holy Communion Jesus gives us his very body and blood for forgiveness and that those who don't believe or don't understand or who believe something other than we believe will not be communed at our altars out of love for the truth of God's Word and love for their souls.<BR/><BR/>Unity in practice means that WELS churches will celebrate Holy Communion and that they will do so in a way that guards the truth of God's Word and the souls of people.<BR/><BR/>Unity in practice doesn't meant that every WELS church offers Communion on the first and third Sundays of the month using only the Chalice on the first Sunday and individual cups on the third Sunday, using King Solomon concord grape wine and whole wheat wafers, not gluten free wafers because that's how my church does it or because there is a Synod rule. Making rules where God does not is putting words into God's mouth and binding consciences where God's Word does not bind them.<BR/><BR/>To fail to offer Holy Communion or not observe Close Communion would be not acting in unity of practice. How an individual congregation decides to offer Communion, in what manner of distribution, the frequency of distribution and other matters pertaining to Communion is left in Christian freedom to the discretion of the congregation.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, to insist on one way of doing Communion, on the same Sunday of the month, utilizing the same manner of distribution just because that's how your church does it is also a break in the unity of practice. <BR/><BR/>Now draw that out to other issues. Practice doesn't mean that we necessarily do things in the same way but how doctrines are put into action. Unity of practice is being faithful to God's Word. Unity of practice is not WELS people who are traveling being sure that they will be comfortable when they attend a sister church with "comfortable" meaning that the church somewhere else will be just like the church back home.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com